Friday, January 14, 2011
Education Tennessee Tea Partiers Complain about "Made-Up Criticism"
Posted by Betsy Phillips on Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 5:56 AM
Fayette County attorney Hal Rounds, a Tea Party Spokesman, was one of about 60 Tea Partiers who came to Nashville on Wednesday to demand changes to the state education system.
According to the Commercial Appeal:
Rounds, the group’s lead spokesman during the news conference, said the group wants to address “an awful lot of made-up criticism about, for instance, the founders intruding on the Indians or having slaves or being hypocrites in one way or another."
I have so many questions I hardly know where to start. But mainly, I wonder if Rounds thinks it's a lie that the Founding Fathers had slaves, or if he thinks it's just unseemly to bring it up.
It's weird. "Made-up" implies a lie — that Tennessee is lying to kids about the Founding Fathers — but the things Rounds lists aren't lies. That is what happened. Slave owners and people who kicked Indians off their land built this country.
It's not pleasant, but it's the truth.
But here's another bit of truth. Our schools are underfunded and underresourced. The idea that there are any great number of schools in this state who are teaching any history other than dates and names?
That's, sadly, a fantasy as well.
But, hey, if it mean we have to pour some money into schools so that they have the time and ability to teach the Tea Partiers' Fantasy of the Immaculate Conception of the United States, I'm all for it.
But without tax dollars, I'm not sure how they think the state is going to implement massive curriculum changes.
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Harold Judson Rounds, III - Lawyer Profile
http://www.martindale.com/Harold-Judson-Rounds-III/1610856-lawyer.htm
Harold Judson Rounds, III
P.O. Box 342
Somerville, Tennessee (Fayette Co.)
Experience & Credentials
Practice Areas: Litigation; Appellate Practice
University: University of California at Santa Barbara, B.A.
Law School: University of Memphis, J.D.
Admitted 1995
ISLN 913746859
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Did the litigator Rounds himself ever attend any Tennessee public school as an enrolled student?
Thomas Jefferson, who wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal . . ." also posted an ad in the Virginia Gazette seeking the return of Sandy, his slave, who had run away. Truth is truth, no matter how uncomfortable it might be.
This nonsense reinforces my belief that the tea party movement is much more about recapturing the 50's than it is about dealing with reality.
Just read this story aloud to my family & my 7-year-old daughter exclaimed, "WHAT? They are SOOOOO stupid." At least Tennessee's public education system didn't fail HER.
That's definately one of the dumbest things I've read in awhile. I'd like to see the context but I'm not sure context will make it seem more intelligent. I wonder what Rounds thinks about Columbus and his "discovery" of the New World, one of the enduring lies that we were all taught as children?
Google Hal Rounds, Somerville, TN and you'll find out more about this guy if you want to know: http://www.constitutionrefresher.com/hal-r…
T Jefferson lived in another era. What's so hard to understand about that? As far as westerners are concerned Columbus did discovere Ameica.Why is that an "enduring lie?" What else would you call it?
The SE "civilized" Indians owned black slaves, in case you missed that bit of history. I believe the US paid for them when the Indians were expelled.
John, so since "T Jefferson" lived in another era, it was good and moral to own slaves. Today, no of course not, but back in the day, sure why not. And Columbus did not discover America that's why it's an enduring lie. There were actual people here when he landed, that alone disqualifies him as discovering anything. He wasn't even the first westerner to get here and it is beyond dispute.
Wow.....talk about closed minded leaders. Whitewash history. So many have done it, and end results, a potential generation totally out of touch with reality.
Based on his logic, Hitler was not evil, just misunderstood.
... and we're off! Here it is Jan 14, and the new legislature has already made the national news. Thanks, guys, we love being one of the country's -- and the world's -- laughing stocks.
http://www.salon.com/news/tea_parties/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/01/13/founding_fathers_tennessee_tea_party
"Based on his logic, Hitler was not evil, just misunderstood."
Hitler wasn't such a bad guy, apart from the genocide, attempting to take over the world, and the anger issues. After all, Goebbels liked him. Oh wait.... :)
Betsy, our schools are not underfunded. The United States spends more per student than any other nation, yet when it comes to test scores, this country ranks between #17 and #26 in basic subjects.
Causes? The culture of achievement is missing in many homes, and parental involvement is lacking. Children have too many distractions, and lack the discipline necessary to succeed. One thing that people don't like to hear is that their children just aren't very intelligent, and thus their academic potential is modest. You can't make a brain surgeon out of a car mechanic.
Actually, I believe that Tea Partiers are saying it's OK to be proud our heritage. They do not want America's name dragged through the dirt. If you feel that the white man is an evil that should be purged from the face of the Earth, that's your problem. We're not going to go quietly any time soon. Who the hell has time to issue mea culpas for things that happened before they were born? There's plenty of injustice to focus on today.
If you look at history, Indians killed white men unprovoked, blacks owned slaves, and people have been transgressing upon one another since time immmemorial. So to use history to make white people ashamed of who they are is just another form of racial bigotry. Take your victim schtick elsewhere, no one is impressed.
Is this my notice that I'm being kicked out of the white race? I guess that means I have to relinquish my casserole dishes. That's a bummer.
I'm on pins and needles waiting for Gilbert to comment on this. It's going to be SO good.
Well here you go, anticipation.
My comment is this:
If we're going to teach the history of slavery in schools, we can include the whole story about the complicity of the African tribesmen who sold other other Africans to the slavetraders.
The slavetraders weren't running around the African continent themselves throwing nets over people. They relied on other Africans to supply them with slaves.
And that, of course, means that Africans were absolutely 100% as complicit for slavery as were the white folks on the other side of the transaction.
"The material calls for lawmakers to amend state laws governing school curriculums, and for textbook selection criteria to say that “No portrayal of minority experience in the history which actually occurred shall obscure the experience or contributions of the Founding Fathers, or the majority of citizens, including those who reached positions of leadership.”
Damn straight. Enough already about the poor Indians and the poor blacks and the poor women and any other poor non-white males. Let's get back to focusing on white men and portraying them as the flawless heroes they were. And still are!
Three things from someone who is sympathetic to many tea party causes:
1) We say we want people to read and understand the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. One cannot do so without looking at the debates that went into creation of those documents. Slavery and the Indian nations were most definitely part of the discussion. We need to understand why the documents ended up the way they did.
2) In Nashville, our schools are terribly underfunded. However, that has very little to do with achievement. MLK and Hume Fogg are in awful, awful shape infrastructure-wise. Yet, they are two of the best schools in the country, producing some of the highest achievers in the country. If you've ever visited one of them, you know we sure as heck don't spend a lot of money on upkeep of these schools. We SHOULD spend much more on all of our schools, simply because it's wrong to send our city's kids to buildings in those conditions. Nevertheless, doing so will do very little for achievement.
3) What does being white have to do with casserole dishes? I play special music services in churches in every part of the city, and many times I'm fed afterward. There is a reason I'm fat.
Gilbert, you're treating this as an either/or. Of course any lesson about slavery should look at the whole picture. That's sort of the point. It's not that the people who find this proposal odious think that the non-whites should be whitewashed (har) but rather they are pointing out that history is complex, people are complex, and there are many ways perspectives to consider. To present the founders as unflawed is to deny them their humanity. And, as Slarti says, if you want to really understand the founding documents (or the Civil War, for that matter) you have to understand the debates that went into the development of those documents. Heck, the play/movie 1776 shows more insight into this facet of history than most Tea Party Constitution fetishists.
HA! I played Caesar Rodney in Gower Elementary's production of '1776' (in 1976, of course).
Such good memories.
@ Betsy,
"Is this my notice that I'm being kicked out of the white race? I guess that means I have to relinquish my casserole dishes. That's a bummer."
Possibly. But your chances to jump will improve.
@ joanie,
You make a valid point. Children need family and community support to achieve their full potential. Parents need to read to children and help with homework and generally provide a stable and loving environment. Communities need to help individual families.
But getting to this point is not cheap. Just because we spend a substantial amount on direct Education does not mean we can ignore necessary expenditures on helping build stronger families and communities. For example, expanded high quality Home Visiting programs are shown to improve at-risk children's performance in school as well as reducing health care costs and child abuse. Healthier children from stable homes have a much greater chance to learn.
@ Chris,
I understand that der Furher was a funny guy too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K08akOt2kuo
"Gilbert, you're treating this as an either/or."
No I'm not. I simply said that part of the story should be included.
Based on what I've heard over my lifetime, 99.9% of the time that aspect of it isn't mentioned in discussions about the history of slavery.
"To present the founders as unflawed is to deny them their humanity."
I never said they were unflawed, either. The greatness of what they created in the Constitution and the principles of limited government it was founded stands on it's own and is undiminshed by the existence of slavery in that time. The founders created a mechanism for change - the Constitutional amendment and it was changed by amendment to end slavery.
Often, whenever someone points out that some government program or activity that is favored by the left is unconstitutonal or not based on any principle the founding fathers believed in, the left's response is to throw up slavery as if that somehow invalidated the Constiitutional text or principles it was based on.
It doesn't.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. For instance, I attended a Tennessee public school and DO recall being taught that African leaders would often sell prisoners to Europeans as slaves. Because this is my personal experience, 100% of all schoolchildren across America are taught the exact same thing. QED.
"this is my predictably partisan opinion"
"well this is my predictably partisan opinion"
"your predictably partisan opinion is wrong"
"no yours is"
"no yours is"
"insult"
"insult"
"biblical reference"
"religion is stupid"
"condemnation"
"insult"
"insult"
-every conversation on this damn thing
Joanie --
The major reason the US has to spend more per student while gaining less in test scores than in other countries is because we have no real social welfare or a universal health plan. We rely on the public school system to offer those services and protections -- so the cost of those safety nets appear as an "educational" cost. There was a fabulous article about this very issue in Harpers several years ago.
Found that article:
http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dl…
"Despite steps to increase per pupil spending, decrease student-teacher ratios, strengthen standards and recruit a better-prepared teaching force, student test scores have remained stubbornly flat over the past 35 years. By international standards, the U.S. spends far more than other nations on education – and has smaller class sizes – yet receives far less value in terms of educational outcomes.
In fact, a lot of such international comparisons lack context and are therefore debatable. Because of the relative paucity of social services in this country – as opposed to the universal preschool, health care and similar generous children’s services provided in other developed nations – our schools are forced to serve as a fallback social-service system for millions of American children. In addition to teaching a far greater diversity of children than is the case in other nations, our educational workers must address countless medical, social and family problems before they can even begin to think about teaching math, reading or history." ...
addendum (these can be insterted anywhere):
-Ashley relieves the tension a little bit
-AlexC says something really reasonable
-Nobody notices
Odds and ends: Within twenty-three years of gaining independence the northern states had outlawed slavery. Meanwhile, the southern states hung on to slavery because of tobacco and cotton plantations. Applied logic could lead one to the conclusion that anyone who uses tobacco products or cotton clothing or sleeps on cotton sheets is endorsing slavery. Native Americans warred between tribes and took territory and made slaves, thus acting like white men of the time. Read the "Lewis and Clark Journals" and you will learn that the disparate tribes they encountered on their journey varied so much in attitude and temperament that it would be lax intellect to consider them all as one common identity, i.e. Injuns. Injuns warred over territory, the same as white people, but white people had numbers and better weapons and it's a good thing for us they did or African Americans would be Africans, fighting their inter-tribal wars, Native Americans would be fighting each other and humping after buffalo to stay alive, and the rest of us could be calling a European ghetto our home (aim low, you're never disappointed). If our forefathers had not established their claims, and considering where the alternatives would leave us today, all of this faux-guilt whining about how bad white people were/are is flatulently ridiculous and irritating.
good lord, gast, what a load.
If you think this is all about white people being demonized and brown people being seen as pure and noble despite evidence to the contrary, you're deluded. Or projecting. Or both.
Stop making up straw man arguments.
Yes, there are lots of people who are riddled with White Man's Guilt or Minority Anger and naively see everything in black and white, with white people being Bad and brown people being Good. That's as naive and ignorant as the reverse. Trust me, I've seen both sides -- I have known lots of people who think of Native Americans as a monolithic, monocultural, Noble and Gentle race who lived in endless harmony with nature, blah blah blah. I know better, because I have quite a bit of academic experience in studying the REAL people rather than the idealized version. They are people, and human cultures, with good points and bad points (as viewed through the lens of our culture). So you think you are educating me when you spout off about what North American and African cultures were like before and during colonization, but I daresay I actually know more about it than you.
That doesn't change the fact that THIS BILL IS A BAD IDEA. As put forth by Our Esteemed Legislature, it does not say, "Let's be sure the history books tell all sides of the story," or "Let's be sure that every Bad Thing done by White People is countered by a Bad Thing done by Brown People." No, they simply want to eliminate any hint that the Sainted Founders did things that were contradictory or things that we now, as a culture, disagree with. And, as Ashley said, just because YOU didn't learn about Africans selling other Africans in school, that doesn't mean that the rest of us didn't. Anecdotes are not statistics or facts.
Also, I have to say, arguments like, "If they hadn't taken over this continent then we'd all be living in slums in Europe and/or subsistence cultures in Africa" is yet another straw man. If things hadn't happened the way they did, things wouldn't be the way they are now. You and I would not even be here. The unique set of circumstances that produced us wouldn't be replicated. And, the "thank god Western culture beat those sorry brown asses" argument is distasteful to say the least.
"...white people had numbers and better weapons..."
And more effective diseases. Diseases that Europeans brought from the old world were probably the number one reason that the native populations were so wiped out. But Gast is correct about the Aboriginal peoples here not being monolithic. That, along with disease, is what brought down the Incas and Aztecs. The Spaniards were highly effective in capitalizing on the resentment many other groups felt towards the Incas and Aztecs and leveraged it. The English and American colonists did the same thing. But the differences in native cultures doesn't excuse the treatment they received as something akin to savages that needed to be removed or killed by whites. Little known fact: the Nazis actually looked to the way Europeans and Americans "removed" it's indigenous peoples as a blueprint for their final solution.
By the way, I would recommend to anyone the book 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus by Charles Mann. It's very fascinating in the portrait it gives of pre-Columbian cultures and how advanced (and diverse) they were.
"Little known fact: the Nazis actually looked to the way Europeans and Americans "removed" it's indigenous peoples as a blueprint for their final solution."
Got any backup for that Chris?
Because the way I heard it, the Nazi's based their concentration camps on the Soviet Gulags that were in existence before WW2. The Germans and Soviets were allies and had agreed to carve up Poland between them before Hitler double crossed Stalin and attacked in operation Barbarossa.
Wow, JA, you're so educated you read a lot into what I didn't say. Aside from "strawman" predictions, What I did was remind people what actually occurred. Some Native Americans were every bit as warlike as us Honkies and I remember reading once or twice that there were actually black Southerners that owned slaves. My gist was that everybody's dilfferent the same way and the white man won out because of numbers and technology. I refuse to feel guilty about that and refuse to feel guilty about antebellum slavery. And textbooks, when I was in school, mentioned that Jefferson and Washington owned slaves and that George Washington Carver worked for peanuts and that a fellow named Pinchback was the first black governor (Louisiana. Did you know that?). Text books ought to tell everything about everything, if that's possible, but also without moralizing, which should be left to MSNBC and Fox News.
I do Gilbert, from the ultimate source into Hitler's thinking, his own book Mein Kampt:
"We must bear in mind that in the time when the American continent was being opened up, numerous Aryans fought for their livelihood as trappers, hunters, etc., and often in larger troops with wife and children, always on the move, so that their existence was completely like that of the nomads. But as soon as their increasing number and better implements permitted them to clear the wild soil and make a stand against the natives, more and more settlements sprang up in the land." (Mein Kampf, Volume 1, Chapter XI)
"The Germanic inhabitant of the American continent, who has remained racially pure and unmixed, rose to be master of the continent; he will remain the master as long as he does not fall a victim to defilement of the blood." (Mein Kampf, Volume 1, Chapter XI)
And these from several scholarly works about Hitler.
"Neither Spain nor Britain should be models of the German expansion, but the Nordics of North America, who had ruthlessly pushed aside an inferior race to win for themselves soil and territory for the future." (Supposedly from Hitler's Secret Book, pgs. 44-8, as quoted by Norman Rich in Hitler's War Aims: Ideology, the Nazi State, and the Course of Expansion
As John Toland notes in his book Adolf Hitler (pg. 202):
"Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination—by starvation and uneven combat—of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity."
According to James Pool in his Hitler and His Secret Partners (pgs. 273-274):
"Hitler drew another example of mass murder from American history. Since his youth he had been obsessed with the Wild West stories of Karl May. He viewed the fighting between cowboys and Indians in racial terms. In many of his speeches he referred with admiration to the victory of the white race in settling the American continent and driving out the inferior peoples, the Indians. With great fascination he listened to stories, which some of his associates who had been in America told him about the massacres of the Indians by the U.S. Calvary."
I haven't seen the 1st PIECE OF CRAP TEA BAGGER complain yet about this $900 billion deal betwwen Obama and the GAY OLE PARTY. I am sure every TEA BAGGER elected to any government has signed up for their government health care and benfits. GAY OLE PARTY and the TEA SIPPING SISSY'S A match made in FRUIT of the LOOM.
Chris is getting really carried away. Perhaps this can be put in the perspective of history.
Let us put Chris A. back in time to the early 1800's. He is a young lad living on a small plantation or maybe just a prosperous farm. His daddy has some slaves. 3-4 possibly.
What would the noble Chris do? One thing I think we can all agree, he would not be carrying on back on that 1820 farm like he is today. I suppose he could have special information, the rare insight of the radical abolistionist, but I doubt it. The odds are against that.
Common sense would tell us he would dream of joining the calvary, hunt Injuns, but more likely, maybe, just take over the farm and even free his slaves when they got older and could not work hard.
Chris allen: Way to read. Hitler was a bastard and Neville Chamberlain was his enabler. Anybody ever heard of "Manifest Destiny?" Big stuff 150 - 200 years ago and still relevant to understanding our history.
@ Mel - You are an absolute imbecile. No social welfare? No universal health plan? The War on Poverty is at $40 trillion and counting, yet we have a greater percentage of the populace at or below the poverty rate than ever. We have free clinics all over the place. Hospitals are not allowed to refuse ANYONE treatment. Children can get breakfast and lunch at every damn school in this country. Social programs are the majority expenditure of our bloated federal government. Where in the hell do you get off telling your lies? Take your Harper's magazine and stick it up your fat ass!
@ No Wimps Allowed - you are a one-note skin flute if I ever heard one.
waiting for these super awesome patriots to explain to me how African tribesmen were responsible for, or at least complicit in 90 years of Jim Crow South. i'm sure it will be enlightening. fat, mush-mouthed Haley Barbour has already pointed out that "it wasn't that bad."
of course, we could just skip the whole debacle if the south-eastern concentration of red states/tea party nexus would just grow a pair AND SECEDE ALREADY. really, guys, this time i think they'll let you go.
I'm pretty sure I'd let several states go.
Secession might not be such a bad idea. Just let the Old Confederacy leave, I don't know about Fla. The most progressive (liberal) states in the union are the ones facing bankruptcy, dead broke NY, Ill and Calif.
yep. mostly because the blue states are subsidizing the rest of the country. TX is basically the only solidly red state that's solvent.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/fed-t…
John,
I am not sure you think of yourself as a Conservative but your response to Chris Allen is one of the most non-conservative comments I have seen in a long time.
One of the core tenets of Conservatism is a belief that our fundamental Ideas are not subject to 'historical context.' In this case, you are suggesting that Chris would certainly have been a defender of slavery had he been born in the 1800s and owned slaves. I would argue that Chris, as an educated person, could easily have reached the conclusion that slavery was immoral and inconsistent with the basic Ideas underlying America.
In fact there were many opponents of slavery, even in the South, at that time. These individuals understood that slavery was incompatible with the basic Idea that men are born free and possess Rights. Even some of the defenders understood the ideological contradictions required to justify slavery in American society. For example, Calhoun's efforts to equate the conditions of Northern industrial workers with the conditions of slaves was a way to justify slavery without engaging the philosophical question.
Yes, thank you Mark. There were plenty of people that detested the "peculiar institution," even in the south. In fact, both Washington and Jefferson were torn intellectually and morally over the practice, even though they never freed their slaves. John, everything doesn't have to be an argument. It is hard to defend slavery.
Gast, I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Gilbert asked for a source to a claim I made and I provided it. If I never read it, I wouldn't have known it. Hitler knew his American history. Big surprise that textbooks never mention that.
I have rarely read such nonsense. You seem to imply I'm defending slavery.
I think it a bit presumptious of anyone who thinks he probably would have opposed slavery back in the early 19th C. I did not say Chris was an "educated person" BTW, rather just a ordinary person growing up during that era. I even said he might have freed his slaves.
After all it was the white westerners who ended slavery, at least in this part of the world, but the ruling blacks in Africa, along with their Muslim dealers, went right along with the slaving for at least another 100 years.
