Thursday, February 18, 2010
Politics / Woods Ramsey, Wamp Throw Snowballs at Science
Posted by Jeff Woods on Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 3:20 PM
Wamp: "You're talking about a tax that comes down on our state and our free enterprise system. So we need to stand against these federal mandates, folks. I mean, this is the coldest winter we've had. What are we talking about? Global warming needs to be based on solid science and evidence and consensus and we're not there yet." Ramsey: "That's exactly right. It always amazes me. ... I saw the other day in Washington, D.C., they were measuring the depth of the snow using Al Gore's books. ... I think we'll look back on global warming one day and see it as the farce that it is."
Comments (34)
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That Al Gore says the days get longer in summer. Heh! Days are always 24 hours long; everybody knows thet. Learned it in private school.
And it's night, right here, right now, hoss. Where's all that sun he talks about? What a dang fool that Al is.
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Yeah, that's right Jeff; you and Bruce need to keep drinking that "non-political" IPCC kool-aid. Besides, it's all Marsha Blackburn's fault. Geez, you two are unbelievably stupid.
I like Colbert's view on this. He compares Fox News personalities who opine on global warming to babies playing peek-a-boo. It snowed somewhere today so Global Warming is false.
I'll have to admit I have gone from AGW semi-beliver to total agnostic, and it has nothing to do with Rush Limbaugh or other right-wingers. When Phil Jones announced this week that there has been no warming for 15 years--in direct contravention of previous statements--I realize for the first time this is at best a farce, at worst a money-grabbing hoax. My mouth flew open, and the American media's downplay of this bombshell is shameful. Jones appeared more like an immunized criminal than a scientist. For all I know, he very well may be.
Science is never "settled" unless there is another motive at work. AGW has become a relgion for most True Believers, and an investment for the clever few.
I likely won't vote for a Republican for governor unless the Democratic nominee kneels in ignorance at the Altar of the Church of Global Warming. Grow up, guys. This was a fraud and you were had.
@babyitscold: I don't believe you.
1. Phil Jones did NOT say there had been no warming for the past 15 years. What he said was that the data show a warming trend, but that the variability is such that we cannot say with 95% certainty that it is a real trend, and not just statistical fluke.
Saying we're less than 95% certain it's been warming is not the same thing as saying there has been NO warming.
2. In your first sentence, you claim this converted you to a "total agnostic". In your last sentence, you refer to AGW as a "fraud".
Agnostics do not call one side of a debate a "fraud". That term is used by opposing True Believers, e.g., you.
"A statistical fluke?"
Phil Jones was arguing over the statistical significance of thousandths of a degree Celsius. Such exquisite precision, yet he can't seem to find the papers in his office that would support his "theory".
Science!
You can really tell who is on the big oil gravy train, can't you??? Even if global warming were a hoax, what's wrong with being stewards of our environment? The Republicans get all preachy until it hurts their pocketbooks, then it's money first, morals last. Marsha Blackburn is the worst of the lot. She's useless, hasn't written a single worthy piece of legislation in her 6 years. NOT A SINGLE ONE.
It should be about time for the Standard Argument to come along now, following these lines:
You're a moron!
Big Oil!
Fox News!
Big Oil!
You're ignorant!
You're an idiot!
Big Oil!
Fox News!
.
.
.
And so forth, on and on, repeated ad infinitum, until their fantasy slips slowly from their grasp.
Never before in the history of mankind has a cartoon deluded so many people into taking the path to self-destruction in order to prevent something that isn't actually happening.
Thanks, Al Gore!
MSNBC Rachel Maddow: Global Warming isn't the opposite of snow
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/35340221#35340221
"went heavy on the zany anti-science talk today in the GOP debate"
How would you know?
You aren't any sort of authority on what the science is.
Nor are you any sort of authority on who is and isn't an authority on what the science is.
"I mean, this is the coldest winter we've had. What are we talking about? Global warming needs to be based on solid science and evidence and consensus and we're not there yet." - Zach Wamp
And there is a good chance that this guy could end up governor. Scary. Every time somebody says something to the effect of "it's cold, what happened to global warming." Or worse, "this is a big conspiracy or outright fraud" I suddenly can't take them seriously anymore. Phil Valentine sounds smart when he's talking, but when he says things like that, I doubt his intelligence about everything.
And to people like that, and Wamp, we will never be there. They won't ever admit they're wrong because that would be admitting people like Al Gore are right, and that's beyond their capacity to do.
"Every time somebody says something to the effect of "it's cold, what happened to global warming." Or worse, "this is a big conspiracy or outright fraud" I suddenly can't take them seriously anymore"
I never hear you complaining when the global warming true believers claim individual weather events such as hurricanes "prove" that man-made global warming exists.
You guys are hilarious. The global warming boosters have been babbling about specific weather events for years - claiming it proves their case.
Now, all of a sudden, no one should be citing weather events.
What about the haybales instead of snow we're having in Canada for the Olympics? Does THAT prove global warming? It's not snowing where it traditionally snows. It is snowing lots where it usually doesn't. Something different....
People, it's CLIMATE CHANGE, not "global warming." and it's happening.
Oh God, let someone intelligent run for governor of TN!
Gilbert, that's your argument? That the "boosters" are doing it so turn-about is fair game? It doesn't matter one whit if "boosters" have talked about specific weather patterns any more than the Phil Valentine's of the world talking about how cold it is outside. What matters is that there is near consent in the scientific community that the ice-caps are warming and this is, in large part, man-made.
But oh yeah, I forgot, scientists are part of a vast world-wide conspiracy that includes Al Gore, Barack Obama, the U.N., Leonardo DiCaprio, wind-farmers, polar bears, and the Illuminati (among others).
"Gilbert, that's your argument? That the "boosters" are doing it so turn-about is fair game"
No the point is that you and the rest of the liberals who never complained one iota about the GW boosters claiming anything and everything is "proof" of global warming and are now squawking about some people on the other side using the same tactic are just a big bunch of hypocrites.
"What matters is that there is near consent in the scientific community that the ice-caps are warming and this is, in large part, man-made."
You aren't the least bit capable of proving a single word of that.
What REALLY matters it that the whole thing is starting to unravel - despite the desperate attempts of the MSM in this country to ignore all the revelations about climategate and the shennanigans perpetrated by the IPCC - the entity that GW true believers throw up as the "ultimate authority" (which they never were).
So you can keep chanting the mantra of the "science being settled" all you want.
Fewer and fewer people are buying it anymore.
How Fast Are Himalayan Glaciers Melting?
The U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change goofs in predicting total meltdown by 2035. But the roof of the world is still losing its icy coat. David Biello reports
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=4F22B210-94AF-346B-D6BA5419F741748E
The village of Brep in Pakistan doesn't exist in the same place anymore. That's because a torrential flood forced the community to move after a lake formed by glacial meltwater burst its bounds and leveled the town.
Glacial lake outbursts have become a yearly occurrence across the high mountain region stretching from Afghanistan to Bhutan sometimes called the Roof of the World.
Such floods are now common because temperatures in this high mountain region are rising even faster than those at lower elevations. A rise in altitude of 2,000 meters equals a tripling in the increase of average temperatures. As a result, many Himalayan, Hindu Kush and Karakoram glaciers are dwindling.
Yet, predictions of the glaciers imminent demise may have been premature. The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change famously predicted they could disappear as soon as 2035. It turns out that guesstimate was based on misquoting a researcher in a 1999 news article—not a result from any kind of peer-reviewed scientific study.
The incident reflects a breakdown in the IPCC process but it doesn't undercut the reality that glacier loss, particularly in what are technically tropical regions such as the Andes and Himalayas, continues to accelerate in the 21st century. Though they likely won't disappear entirely for centuries, losing the glaciers will eventually be bad news for the billions around the world who rely on meltwater to survive.
No More Glaciers in Glacier National Park by 2020?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/03/090302-glaciers-melting.html
Anne Minard
National Geographic News
March 2, 2009
It's an oft-repeated statistic that the glaciers at Montana's Glacier National Park will disappear by the year 2030.
But Daniel Fagre, a U.S. Geological Survey ecologist who works at Glacier, says the park's namesakes will be gone about ten years ahead of schedule, endangering the region's plants and animals.
The 2030 date, he said, was based on a 2003 USGS study, along with 1992 temperature predictions by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).
"Temperature rise in our area was twice as great as what we put into the [1992] model," Fagre said. "What we've been saying now is 2020."
The 2020 estimate is based on aerial surveys and photography Fagre and his team have been conducting at Glacier since the early 1980s. A more standardized measure of what's happening to a glacier comes from arduous documentation of its mass, which requires—among other techniques—multiple core samples.
Fagre said the 2020 estimate could be slightly revised after his team conducts the mass measurements—hopefully this year—and their computer models are retooled with current temperatures.
Nonpolar ice is disappearing all over the globe, Fagre said. Major glaciers have entirely disappeared from the Andes, and the Himalaya have lost a third of their snow.
(See video of Alpine glaciers melting.)
more at hyperlink...
"No the point is that you and the rest of the liberals who never complained one iota about the GW boosters claiming anything and everything is "proof" of global warming and are now squawking about some people on the other side using the same tactic are just a big bunch of hypocrites."
Me and the rest of the liberals? Anyways, the huge difference is the deniers don't have any kind of actual scientific basis for their arguments. Their authorities are people like Limbaugh and Beck, who cherry-pick (like Gilbert just did) data that fits their world view and throw out everything else. "Climategate?" That's pretty funny Gilbert. I could give you numerous links that actual scientists are convinced we've got a problem but you will just throw them out because it's all just one big conspiracy. People who believe in giant conspiracies aren't going to believe anything so why even bother.
Chris, out.
One more thing. This is another example of right-wingers following their right-wing radio leaders like sheep. First, ten years ago, we were told, there is no such thing as global warming. Then, when they could not ignore scientific fact any longer, we were having global warming, but it was completely natural. Then they were back to denying it was occurring. Then not only wasn't global warming happening, we were in the midst of "global cooling." This is one of Phil Valentine's favorite arguments. One where he completely misrepresents science. The funny thing is, it is always people like Hannity or Limbaugh who tout these new arguments and then on cue their listeners start ignorantly advocating them.
They have successfully muddled the public's views and that is what is really scary.
Chris Allen: "Me and the rest of the liberals? Anyways, the huge difference is the deniers don't have any kind of actual scientific basis for their arguments. Their authorities are people like Limbaugh and Beck, who cherry-pick (like Gilbert just did) data that fits their world view and throw out everything else."
Did you actually mean to say, "...Their authorities are high school graduates like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Shaun Hannity, who cherry-pick (like Gilbert just did) data that fits their world view and throw out everything else."
Specialty plate would honor coal
http://blogs.tennessean.com/politics/2010/specialty-plate-proposed-to-honor-coal/
SB 2670 by *Faulk ( *HB 2743 by *Lundberg)
Special License Plates - As introduced, authorizes issuance of "Friends of Coal" new specialty earmarked plates; proceeds from such plates allocated to Tennessee surface mine reclamation fund to be used for reclamation and revegetation of property affected by mining and exploration operations. - Amends TCA Title 55, Chapter 4.
actions taken on sb2670 action date
Placed on S. Trans Consent cal. for 02/23/2010
Metinvest starts shipping iron ore to China using Capesize large-capacity vessels
http://www.kyivpost.com/news/business/bus_general/detail/53942/
November 30, 2009 at 12:53
Interfax-Ukraine
The mining division of Metinvest Group has developed the functional logistics for exporting iron ore raw materials using Capesize-class 175,000-400,000 Deadweight tonnage (DWT) vessels.
posting on the Metinvest Group's Web site says that the Kassos Warrior, a vessel of 195,000 DWT, has been loaded and sent to China.
At present, the Mykonos bulk carrier is being prepared for sailing.
"This is first time that the raw materials extracted by the mining division of the company have been shipped in such volumes. Thus, Ukraine has become one of a group of countries that can supply bulk cargo using Capesize-class 175,000-400,000 DWT vessels. The new mechanism for sales was developed as a part of a strategy for the diversification of supplies and the expansion of sales markets for Metinvest Group," reads the release.
The combined loading of bulkers in two stages was successfully worked out during the drawing up of shipment mechanisms. In the first stage, the bulkers are loaded at ports near berths in Odesa region, and in the second stage – the vessels go to deep-waters in Kerch for full loading.
At present, the infrastructure of Ukrainian ports is not suitable for the full loading of Capesize-class vessels at port berths due to depth restrictions.
"This is a great breakthrough for Ukraine. Our country has never shipped bulk cargo using the said vessels. We've now achieved the maximally efficient logistics for iron ore exports by sea," reads the release, citing the honorary director of the mining division of Metinvest Group, Oleksandr Vilkul.
A bulk carrier or bulker is a merchant ship specially designed to transport unpackaged bulk cargo, such as grains, coal, ore, and cement in its cargo holds.
21 MAY 2009
DLA Piper advises United Coal Company (UCC) on the sale of 100% of shares to Metinvest Group
http://www.dlapiper.com/ukraine/news/detail.aspx?news=2957
PRESS RELEASE
DLA Piper, in cooperation with law firms Venable LLP and Howrey LPP, advised United Coal Company, LLC, an American producer of metallurgical and steam coal headquartered in Teays Valley, West Virginia, USA (UCC) on the sale of 100% of shares to Metinvest Group. Metinvest was represented in the transaction by Hammonds and Metinvest's legal department.
UCC has significant reserves of high quality metallurgical coal which will help Metinvest's coke facilities produce a better quality feedstock. As a consequence, the Group's steel works will be provided with a higher quality coke, reducing iron production costs and improving quality characteristics. The acquisition will enable the Group to be more competitive in current and prospective sales markets.
Lawyers in the DLA Piper team advised UCC on obtaining the approval of Ukraine's Antimonopoly Committee and assisted the company in dealing with regulatory issues.
Arthur Kotenko, partner in the Corporate and Tax practice in DLA Piper's Kyiv office led the team advising UCC. He was supported by senior associate Natalia Pakhomovska and associate Elina Vavryshchuk.
Metinvest Acquires United Coal Company
http://www.metinvestholding.com/en/press-centre/news/2009/4/108
30 April 2009 // Press centre Metinvest Group
Metinvest Group acquires a 100% stake in United Coal Company (UCC).
Metinvest announces today that it has acquired United Coal Company, LLC, an American producer of metallurgical and steam coal headquartered in Teays Valley, West Virginia (“UCC”). The acquisition has received all necessary approvals in the United States and Europe.
The key rationale for the acquisition of UCC was its significant reserves of high quality metallurgical coal, which will help Metinvest’s coke and chemical facilities produce a better quality feedstock. As a consequence, the Group’s steel works will be provided with a higher quality coke, reducing iron production costs and improving quality characteristics. The Group will thereafter be more competitive in current and prospective sales markets.
Igor Syry, the CEO of METINVEST HOLDING, LLC, commented: “We are extremely pleased with the agreement reached to acquire United Coal Company, and that we will be able to partner with the management team they have assembled. Metinvest is constantly looking for opportunities to improve our effectiveness and enhance the quality of our products. A higher quality of coke is especially critical in today’s environment, when Metinvest is reducing consumption of natural gas as a result of the increase in gas prices. Furthermore, we intend to maintain the existing business model of UCC, working closely with its excellent management team and employees. One of the things that attracted us to UCC was that they had managed to grow production quickly since 2005, and that they had several opportunities for additional expansion in the near term that matched our needs. Metinvest will continue to invest in the company in order to increase production.”
...
“We are trying to apply a consistent approach to our strategy, to form an efficient and balanced metallurgical company, which will be a major player in the European and world markets” emphasized Mr. Syry. Having assets in the United States, the world’s most stable supplier, and having access to the world class mining methods employed by UCC with its tremendous record of and dedication to safety is a transformational step for Metinvest. This transaction positions us well for the rebound of world markets.”
“We at United Coal Company are very excited about the transaction”, commented Michael Zervos, CEO and President of UCC. “That Metinvest trusts our management team to continue to run the Company in the manner we have built it means everything to us. We have dedicated ourselves to building a world class producer of metallurgical coal, while keeping an unwavering focus on our core principles of employee safety and respect for the environment. That foundation of our Company will not change. As we built the Company, however, we saw that in order to maximize our growth opportunities, we would have to partner with an integrated steel producer so that our coals would have a sales outlet even in challenging market conditions. We believe that this transaction is a great outcome for all stakeholders in UCC, and we look forward to helping Metinvest achieve its goal of becoming the most efficient global steel producer.”
As both parties are privately held, further details concerning the transaction are unavailable.
Briefing note:
United Coal Company (UCC) is a privately-held coal company with operations in the Central Appalachian basin. UCC was formed in 2004 by private investors, (including James McGlothlin who was one of the founders of the original United Coal Company in the 1970s), and grew through acquisitions of metallurgical coal producers. Since then UCC has grown to be one of the leading producers of metallurgical coal in the United States, ranking (by public company estimates) sixth among U.S. metallurgical coal producers. Production capacities of UCC’s four operating business units total approximately 7 mln. tons. UCC mines metallurgical and steam coal using both underground and surface mining techniques in the states of West Virginia, Virginia, and Kentucky.
" Anyways, the huge difference is the deniers don't have any kind of actual scientific basis for their arguments. "
Says you.
You aren't any authority on what the science is nor are you any authority on who is the authority on it.
"I could give you numerous links that actual scientists are convinced we've got a problem"
Uh huh - and there are other actual scientists who say we don't.
You aren't the least bit capable of proving that those who say we do know any more about it than those who say we don't.
"One more thing. This is another example of right-wingers following their right-wing radio leaders like sheep."
No it's a case of the true believers becomong increasinging alarmist in attemptint to get people to accept something as fact that none of them can actually prove as fact.
You want to prove there is a causative correlation between man's activites and the earth's temperature?
Show me a perfectly linear one for one correlation between variations in man-made so-called "greenhouse gassses" and variations in global temperature that tracks consistently over every single second of the entire timespan of human existence on the planet.
That is the only thing that would be unequivocally definitive enough to prove it.
And you either prove something with absolute definitivenes or you've proven absolutely nothing.
Bill Nye the Science Guy: Climate change deniers are ‘unpatriotic’ | Raw Story
http://rawstory.com/2010/02/bill-nye-climate-change-deniers-unpatriotic/
Frozen water fell from the sky today, therefore thousands of scientists the world over are liars. Just go with it.
That's the narrative coming from Fox News in their coverage of the heavy snow blanketing the eastern coast of the United States this winter. Thankfully, there's Bill Nye the Science Guy, ready to explain the complexities of climate science in terms easy enough for even a child to digest.
Nye, however, jacked his assessment of meteorology into the realm of partisanship, scoffing on MSNBC's The Rachel Maddow Show on Wednesday night that climate change deniers are "unpatriotic" in parroting simple minded, anti-science propaganda.
"[We] remind you that global warming was the first term for this phenomenon that we now call can climate change," he said. "So it‘s very reasonable that a snowstorm in Washington that‘s this severe is a result of climate change."
"There's more energy in the atmosphere, and this is stirring things up," Nye continued. "If you want to get serious about it, these guys claiming that the snow in Washington disproves climate change are almost unpatriotic. It's really, they're denying science."
Nye, who once hosted a popular children's show, explained that as an educator he's noticed a sharp divide between older and younger people when it comes to accepting the science of climate change.
"This is anecdotal for me," Nye said. "Older people just have a much harder time grasping the idea that you have many billions of people on the planet with a very, very thin atmosphere, you‘re able to affect its climate. It's younger people are able to sort of embrace it, understand the evidence and move forward."
Weather, he noted, is day-to-day. The average global climate on a year-to-year basis, however, is something else entirely.
NASA scientists announced toward the end of January that the last 10 years were the hottest decade in over 2,000 years, with 2009 being the second warmest on record.
"This thing of denying science, you know, science has done so much to make this country what it is: A technological leader," Nye said. "It's improved the quality of life for so many people, here and around the world. To deny what scientists or scientific evidence is showing, is inappropriate. And as I said earlier ... It's unpatriotic."
And you either prove something with absolute definitivenes or you've proven absolutely nothing.
Awesome. Smoking isn't bad for you, then. While it's true that cigarette smokers are many times more likely to die from heart disease, various cancers, or various pulmonary diseases than nonsmokers, it's never been proven with "absolute definitiveness" that smoking is bad for you.
I can't wait to tell my dad he doesn't have to quit.
As far as the topic at hand, it is rather pitiful that zealots on both sides tend to forget what most of us learned in elementary school: weather and climate are not the same thing.
