Tuesday, December 15, 2009
Around Town / Phillips The Salvation Army Should Be Ashamed of Itself
Posted by Betsy Phillips on Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 9:50 AM
"'For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'"Because I think you may need a little refresher course. Jesus pretty clearly doesn't like it when you dick over kids. When you dick over kids, it's the same as dicking over Jesus. Not my standard, that's His. And yet, I see in The Tennessean a huge story about how kids of people who can't prove their immigration status are turned away by your organization and can't get presents. Oh, I know. Rules are rules. Surely, Jesus would understand that it's better that some kids get no toys than it is for a few kids to get too many. I'm sure that's what happened during the miracle of the loaves and fishes--the disciples just didn't give food to the most vulnerable, desperate kids, in order to ensure that the kids of con artists wouldn't get too much. Oh, wait, that's not what happened at all. They had five loaves and two fish and yet somehow that was enough to feed the multitude. Even the jackasses, and you know every crowd has them. My dad talks about this miracle sometimes. We disagree about it. I like to think that it's a supernatural story, like the basket containing the loaves and fishes just magically never emptied. My dad claims that that's no miracle at all--to have the Son of God just keep the basket full; a mere parlor trick for a deity. His contention is that what really happened is that, in spite of human nature, in spite of our wanting to draw arbitrary distinctions between us, in spite of some people taking more than they need, in spite of some people not being able to open themselves up to goodness, people shared what they had and everybody ate. I used to think that this wasn't much of a miracle. But then I see ostensibly Christian organizations like you holding out on little kids who have no other hope for presents at Christmas and I think my dad is right. It does take an act of God to get people to act decently toward each other. And that's a miracle that's not going to come in time for the kids you're dicking over because you have rules. Disgusting. Do the people who put money in your pots know that it's going towards ruining Christmas for some kids in our community?
Comments (56)
Showing 1-50 of 56
I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.
like
dislike
I had never thought of the miracle of the loaves and fishes the way your father does, but I do like it. Also, it makes the disciples look less foolish.
I've always wondered why the disciples were all "oh, Jesus, dude, we can't possibly feed 4000 people with the seven loaves and these fish" in Matthew 15 when Jesus got 5000 fed with five loaves and two fish in Matthew 14.
But, reading it in the context your dad does, it's more like the disciples are saying "Fine, we know all those people shared before, but surely they won't do it again."
There are plenty of other charitable organizations who do not discriminate against the children of God from other places. Please support those charities.
Catholic Charities comes to mind, as does St. Luke's Community House.
Jesus was a refugee, people.
Well the children can now go home, where they will probably find a better job, with much better pay and wont need any Salvation Army. The only jobs here are with the Federal government and unless you have some family or policticak clout, well you're SOL
Hey Mohandas, why don't you go back to Packistand where you belong? Ha, Ha, Ha.
Jesus was NOT AN ILLEGAL ALIEN in Egypt. His family was given a special refugee visa. Jesus is FOR SECURE BORDERS, as it undermines the country that he co-founded, along with Thomas Jefferson, when people come here uninvited.
Anyways, I'm off to The Salvation Army right after I type this to do all of my Christmas shopping!!!!! So put that in your crack pipe and smoke it, libtards!!!!!
"Necesidades no conocen a estaciónes."
This is a regular Norman Rockwell painting, innit?
Needy children are required to establish their "eligibility" for Christmas cheer before the Salvation Army.
It's a regular Yule log of Christian warmth.
Just another reason to find other orgs to donate my money to.
PFLAG has encouraged a boycott of the Salvation Army for several years now due to their anti-gay stances.
Just another reason to find other orgs to donate my money to.
PFLAG has encouraged a boycott of the Salvation Army for several years now due to their anti-gay stances.
No good deed goes unpunished. The SA is not the only organization that requires a ss# for the participating parent. Do you know why? So that more people who really need this service can get it. The use of an id was not intended to keep anyone out except the dishonest. The policy unintentionally caused a problem for those in our city without documentation.
The real bad guys in this? The scum who use these gift giveaways to profit for themselves. In the past, and still today, criminal minds use the goodness of others to line their pockets. How big a problem is this? Maybe you should investigate where the toys really end up at Christmas. They are returned to the store for cash, hocked in a pawn shop or end up in private "stores". There are people who get enough free toys at Christmas to stock a small department store. They then SELL the toys to the same poor needy parents who could not get on the Angel tree list because the dishonest scum had already taken all if the slots.
The story does not say "kids of people who can't prove their immigration status are turned away" by the program.
It says the program "require parents to produce Social Security numbers for themselves and their children, along with proof of income and personal identification."
It is certainly debatable whether or not the Salvation Army should have such rules in order to weed out fraud. And I personally could not care less about immigration status, as far as receiving a gift goes. But your suggestion that they are refusing illegal immigrants specifically appears to be mistaken. Rightly or wrongly, they're being refused because of a lack of a SSN, not because of their immigration status.
Nobody is entitled to anything.
I don't understand this new mentality of everybody standing around with outstretched hands.
---
If you don't like what the organization does, fine. Don't support them.
But understand that there are a LOT of children and families that they ARE affecting in many ways, every day.
If your priorities are with illegals, then support a charity that falls in line with your beliefs.
That being said, I don't think it's fair to put down a charitable organization that doesn't cater to your beliefs.
Everybody can't win all of the time.
Your entire rant revolves around what Jesus would do - Well, he may not agree entirely with what the Salvation Army does, but I don't think he'd be putting them down in a public tirade.
If your true passion lies within helping the illegal community, then why not write an article that praises an organization that lends a helping hand to that demographic instead of putting one down that doesn't?
Why not spread holiday joy instead of jeers?
Switch your mentality around and stop looking for negativity to keep you on your high horse, instead look around and find the good in life and praise it.
. m
"Justice or not" many other charities include a social security number among the ways that people may establish they are who they say they are, not as the only way.
And yes, there are con artists. There are always con artists.
But if your organizations' philosophy is that it's better for some needy kids to go without presents than it is for con artist to pull one over on you, that's an un-Christian philosophy.
So, Anon, what you're saying is that they discriminate against the children of all non-citizens?
And this is better how?
They discriminate against people who have no SSN, no matter what their immigration status.
As I said before, whether or not that should be their policy is entirely debatable. But do you agree that people are not being refused because they are non-citizens?
And here's the follow-up article in today's paper with more info. Note that that the headline now refers accurately to "children not eligible".
Kudos to Tom Grimaldi and the rest.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20091215/NEWS01/912150340/2066/NEWS03
I'm with Mohandas. Christ had the right idea. BE fair and equal to all humans.
Unfortunately I don't find many Christians who can live up to his example. Most religious people fall a long way short. Just like the rest of us
So, basically, Marcus, you think that the Salvation Army should be able to blackmail critics into staying silent? If we complain about them failing to live by their own principles in ways that hurt children, they might stop helping the children they do help?
I find that a weird position--that people who discriminate against children should just be left to do their thing while the rest of us do our thing. Are there ever situations where you say "Hey, that's not right" or is everything a matter of live and let live?
Anon, why are you so intent on splitting this hair? Do you really think that it's some great coincidence that they came up with this "your parent must have a social security number" rule in the past five years?
Con artists have always been with us.
But the backlash against illegal immigrants has increased exponentially in the past decade.
Just how big a coincidence am I supposed to accept before I refuse to believe it's a coincidence?
I don't understand this new mentality of everybody standing around with outstretched hands.
What, are you a bailed-out banker? I kid, I kid. Times are tough for a growing number of people, and "Don't Worry, Be Happy" is not a solution. Instead of looking down our nose at people in need, we should be helping them. The Salvation Army claims to do just that. However, they've set up a situation where they betray their own stated purpose, and for a specific and especially vulnerable group of people. That opens them up for criticism.
Looking at the bigger picture, I believe there needs to be some old-fashioned country justice (i.e. beatings) on people who defraud an orginization that provides gifts to poor kids at Christmas. Running that kind of scam isn't just dickish, it's actively evil.
Ah, so you suspect the SSN rule is designed specifically to weed out illegals. That's fine. Maybe you're right.
But at this point, a suspicion is all you have. And flatly stating, as you did, that people are being required to prove their immigration status is incorrect.
That's not hair-splitting. It's a matter of accurate vs. inaccurate.
The word "suspect" was all that was supposed to be italicized in that previous post. For Xmas, I'm asking for html code training.
Your entire rant revolves around what Jesus would do - Well, he may not agree entirely with what the Salvation Army does, but I don't think he'd be putting them down in a public tirade.
The Money Changers would like a word with you about this.
Isn't the social sec number used to determine if one has already registered with a particular charity? If so, I don't find it mean spirited, just a tad myopic.
TIRRC will probably not devote man-hours to determine what if any wrongdoing has occurred. Private charities can do pretty much as they please.
Glad to see someone call attention to the problem, of course, and proud that Mr. Grimaldi is a Tennessean.
But anon, that's what it amounts to. You can't have a social security number if you're not here legally, so their asking for a social security number is a matter of asking people to prove their immigration status.
The Salvation Army is talking out of both sides of its mouth. It says, "It's not a matter of whether they're legal or illegal" while at the same time it says, "that these individuals are living in this community and we are addressing local need."
There are many ways of verifying that people live in this community and have local need that don't require social security numbers. Other charities use those methods. The Salvation Army uses those methods when distributing food.
So, what, exactly, other than citizenship, is being verified through social security numbers that couldn't be verified some other way?
Nothing.
They say they KNOW children of illegal immigrants will be disqualified from their program. Quoting again from the article--"He said he knows the Salvation Army's policy means some people — including those who have U.S.-born children but are themselves illegal immigrants — cannot successfully navigate the Angel Tree application process."
They know their system keeps U.S.-born children out. THEY KNOW IT. And yet, that's still the system they use.
How is this then not about the immigration status of their parents?
They knowingly use a system that kicks out kids of illegal immigrants who otherwise fit their criteria for help. There are other systems they could use (and do use in other circumstances) that don't do this.
And it's not about the immigration status of those parents?
I don't believe it.
Otherwise, when they realized their system was excluding these children, they would have fixed it.
Our family has taken active parts in several charity organizations through out the years, including our church. But if you are concerned about the "Jesus story" in all of this, do as we and several friends decided to do a few years ago. Dropping a few dollars in a kettle or buying a few gifts anonymously during the Christmas season is about you and soothing your conscience. To live the "Jesus story", go find a needy family or two or three and get actively involved with them. Find out their needs and how you can help them. Remember them on birthdays, anniversaries, and other holidays. Drive them to the doctor, pharmacy, buy them diapers and toilet paper, school supplies and school clothing. Experience their wishes for their family and help them through building a relationship with them. Rejoice with them in their sucesses and weep with them in their dark times. You will be far richer for it than just an anonymous donation in anybody's kettle.
Here's how I came at this this. I read the following sentence: "I see in The Tennessean a huge story about how kids of people who can't prove their immigration status are turned away by your organization and can't get presents."
I thought, "Damn. That's pretty mean." But then I read the article and find out they're not asking people to prove their immigration status, but their SSN. I thought, "Is that merely a ruse to weed out illegals? Could be, but I'm not sure. Maj. Rob Vincent, the Salvation Army's area commander says no, and I'm not ready to call him liar."
And you're not sure either. Maybe in your mind you are, but that doesn't make it a fact. You may be right. But your suspicion should be labeled as suspicion, and not fact.
Here's the way I think the offending paragraph would have been better:
"I see in The Tennessean a huge story about how kids of people who can't provide a Social Security number are turned away by your organization and can't get presents. Now of course most of those who don't have a SSN are illegal immigrants. Coincidence? I don't believe it."
With that, the raw facts are clearly delineated from your opinion.
But those are my standards, not yours. You are free to mix up opinion with fact any way you choose. And I will be free not to trust your summaries in the future.
So, basically, Marcus, you think that the Salvation Army should be able to blackmail critics into staying silent? If we complain about them failing to live by their own principles in ways that hurt children, they might stop helping the children they do help?
I find that a weird position--that people who discriminate against children should just be left to do their thing while the rest of us do our thing. Are there ever situations where you say "Hey, that's not right" or is everything a matter of live and let live?
---
Wait, what?
I'm not understanding what part of my position is "weird." Let me recap my thoughts one more time...
Basically, what I'm saying is that if an organization, or any business for that matter, is engaged in activities that I don't like, I'll donate/shop elsewhere.
If I were upset about Salvation Army's "discrimination" I would simply choose to donate elsewhere.
I would recognize and respect the fact that my beliefs are different than the beliefs of the organization. Not a big deal; we're all different people, with different ideals and different perspectives. I may not always understand it but that's okay.
I'm not here to point fingers and throw a verbal fit.
My response to your question to me seeing something that I don't believe is right occurring would depend on the situation.
If it's something like this Salvation Army story and the "discrimination" bothered me - then my response would be to work with an organization that goes behind the Salvation Army to fill in the gaps of people that they are refusing. If there isn't already an organization and it meant that much to me, I would start one.
I would find ways to create working solutions. I have a hard time understanding how sound effects and over-dramatics would fix any situation.
If this post is Betsy's way of venting, then I understand her points and I hope she feels better now that she's gotten it off her chest. I strongly agree that all children deserve a Christmas. I also know that there are more organizations out there besides the Salvation Army that helps with this.
If it meant that much to her, I think that a story that highlighted other organizations and their efforts would have been more beneficial. Show me what other organizations are doing to help out the people that the Salvation Army has turned away. Show me how to help and make a difference. Who do I get in contact with? What are some websites to visit so that I can learn more?
I'm merely suggesting that a little bit of perspective will go a long ways.
. m
My fellow Americans, yall shouldnt be so hard on these illegals now. I hu hu opened the flood gates so they could come in here. I mean it's compasionate conservatism. Besides I owed some favors to the Mexican Mafia and government that I had to furfill. See me and Dad a few others got this North American Union thingy working too, oops I cant talk about dat yet. Uh ok well the big thing is we need some more slaves, well close to it anyway, hard working folk. to work deese jobs that nobody else wants for $5 an hour. Plus I got dis little powder habbit that these folks help me with too.
I know me and Dad lied about how good NAFTA was going to be for both of our countries. Hey but my good buddy slick and Al lied to. So please just keep fighten du good war on terror and dont worry about them illegals. AND dont make fun of my spelling and grammer either. Im a Yale grad afterall
In the Tennessean story I thought that I read where the SA offered to help the families find other groups which did not have the SA rules. That hardly seems to fall into either the heartless or intentionally anti-immigrant categories.
It should be easy to find out whether this is a regional or national policy and how long the SA has had the rule about requiring Social Security numbers. I would think that the lynch mob could wait until that was determined.
But I have a feeling that it would not matter. What does all the good that the Army does matter when it does not measure up to the moral standards of certain enlightened ones?
What does it matter that the Army is a distinct Christian denomination with its own interpretations?
Who cares that the Army staff make far smaller salaries than employees at other charities?
What does it matter that few organizations put larger percentages of their contributions directly into their charities than the Army?
None of this matters because the Army dares to have different beliefs than some elite posters here. How dare any Christian denomination dare to have views that dissent from such enlightened ones.
Now if a Conservative were to suggest that a liberal denomination misunderstood Christ's teachings, is there any doubt that the same enlightened ones would descend in righteous fury to criticize them for judging the beliefs of others? Of course not.
The Army does not meddle in politics and does not tell people to avoid other charities. They work hard at helping many of the most vulnerable and they do it without huge salaries or big perks.
B! So glad to see you writing over here.
I'm torn, slightly, on the issue, I have to tell you. Here is a column that makes me question where I stand.
Hey Britt, just get the facts, do plenty of research and dont let any journalist, talk show host, blogger or party spokesperson tell you how to think. That's one reason America is in the mess it's in. People have become sluggs and just go along with their Republican or Democrat party programming, with no deductive or inductive reasoning abilities.
"We ask for your attention to a front page feature story in this Sunday morning's Tennessean. That story, in part, accuses The Salvation Army Angel Tree program of immigration-based discrimination. Please note the sub title, "rules to prevent fraud have unintended results" was overshadowed by the headline, "Nashville Charities reject immigrants kids." The Salvation Army Angel Tree program has a clear set of guidelines that pertain to everyone regardless of race, color, religion, sex, genetics or national origin. What we expect or do for one we do for all to remain consistent and fair to all who apply.
The Salvation Army Hispanic Corps with current officers, Sgt. Alves and Evelini Gonzales have been serving the Hispanic community for close to 16 years and has a Christmas party every year for those families who attend it's church without regard to immigration status. Last year 200 children were served with a Christmas party and gifts and another party is in the works for 2009.
This year, The Salvation Army Angel Tree took 4460 applications and will provide assistance to over 14,000 individuals.
We are grateful to all of our donors and volunteers who help lift and support the works of The Salvation Army."
Jesus also said "Live by the law of the land".....
I think if there are toys left over after distributing to legal citizens then yes we should give to others.
I know it is not the childrens fault and I am sorry that they pay for their parents illegal doings, but unfortunately that is the way it is.
"The Salvation Army Angel Tree program has a clear set of guidelines that pertain to everyone regardless of race, color, religion, sex, genetics or national origin. What we expect or do for one we do for all to remain consistent and fair to all who apply."
Fine. No de jure discrimination here, folks. But de facto discrimination all day long.
And the other problem is this. At the end of the day, the Salvation Army moves a lot of toys and money from the hands of people who want to donate into the hands of people who really need help. A lot.
And not just under the auspices of the Salvation Army. Many other charities work with them. Many other religious organizations donate what they collect to them.
So, it's really not just as easy as live and let live, let them do their thing with their rules while others do their own thing with their own rules.
They are the largest game in town and in many circumstances, they are the game you're playing, whether you know it or not.
So, it's really on them to shape up, since finding other charities who don't work with them is not very easy.
I'm not saying what they're doing is illegal. I'm saying that what they're doing is morally wrong.
If I accept some of y'all's arguments that they're not intentionally discriminating against the children of illegal immigrants, after thinking about this, I think that's worse.
At least, if they were acting out of bigotry, it would be understandable why the problem wasn't rectified when they learned of it.
But that they know about it, that they know it deprives children who need toys of toys, and they have nothing against those children, but they continue?
That's almost bone-chillingly cruel.
April, children of illegal immigrants who are born here are legal citizens. We don't have an official two-tiered system any more where some citizens have more rights and legal standing than others.
Mark, ha ha ha. If being against being a jackass to children makes me an elitist, so be it. I don't know a lot of regular folks who like being jackasses to children, but if that's what you think of regular people, that's what you think of regular people.
Nothing I can say, I'm sure, will disabuse you of that notion.
Aunt B.,
It is not about "being against being a jackass to children" but about using this as a stick to beat the Salvation Army in service to an immigration agenda.
From the first you and others have wanted to make this about immigration rather than about a rule that seems to pre-exist the heated debates of the last few years. So which is worse, a well-meaing rule that probably ought be changed or trashing an organization that does enormous good in order to advance an agenda that doesn't really relate to that organiztion?
I don't think that makes you elite. I think harming the Salvation Army to make a point about immigration is arrogant.
Perhaps, I lack the cheery glaze optimism to get morally outraged over this....but it seems to me, Salvation Army is as said above, the biggest game in town with regards to distributing gifts to children. Also posted above, this year that amounts to Christmas presents for 14,000 kids. So it doesn't surprise me they have rules in place that requires some sort of paperwork to be apart of it. That is what happens with big organizations, they have to be accountable for all the money they bring in. Is that perfect? Does that address the new face of Nashville with its immigration issues? No. But they do the best they can while simultaneously dealing with the beast of transparency. And from the sound of it, they also direct people that don't follow that to organizations better equipped to handling it AND providing other services where the need for transparency is less required.
Also, the tone of this article is so viseral it just strikes me more like BaHumBug than real concern. Call me a pessimist.
Salvation Army, you do more good works than I can imagine, and your Angel Tree program is a wonderful one which makes Christmas a lot brighter for thousands of children.
However, your requirement for proof of a Social Security number is troublesome. At first glance, it might seem to be aimed towards illegal immigrants, which would be even more troublesome. But you say it's not, so for the time being anyway, I will take your word for it.
Regardless, your rules designed to avoid fraud seem excessive and deny needy children the joy of Christmas that you provide other needy children. Surely there is some way around this.
Though others may advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I, at this point, do not. However, I sincerely hope that you review your requirements for eligibility so that children are not needlessly excluded.
To all those who found Betsy's hyperbole over the top: Just what is it that you think bloggers around the world do? Engage in understatement? Judging from the number of responses, I'd say it was a rather successful attempt to start a conversation.
To those whose immediate instinct was to leap to the defense of the Salvation Army, I'd make these two points:
1. The SA itself confirms that its SSN policy has the effect of excluding certain children from receiving Christmas gifts...even though SA says that was not its intent.
2. Results provide a much more certain standard by which to judge policies than intentions.
It's just my opinion, but if a policy has the effect of turning away needy kids at Christmas time, it is a bad policy. All of the attempts in the world at ex post facto justification won't make the policy any better. A policy change would be the only solution and it's probably too late for this Christmas. But the public criticism SA has received this year might prevent the same mistake next year.
Just my two cents' worth.
We're working on a list of charities with less problematic giving practices than the Salvation Army over at Tiny Cat Pants.
I also wanted to alert you guys to the fact that the Salvation Army is short presents. People who took angels have not followed through, as of yet, and it also seems like not all angels got adopted, so they are in need of presents. Desperate need. If you can provide unwrapped gifts, bring them by the warehouse 811 Cowan as soon as possible. They're in the process of delivering gifts as we speak, so the shortage needs to be resolved now.
Think of it as your way of sticking it to me. It sure would show me if everyone the Salvation Army knew of who needed presents got them.
I swear, it will make me miserable.
So, get on it, internet haters.
Aunt B.,
I will help with the toys but not to 'stick it to you.' And thanks for your efforts to find other resources.
Even when you are wrong, you can achieve a great deal of Good. That is one reason we love and respect you. You are like an animal-friendly Newt Gingrich.
I'm wondering what exactly defines an "internet hater" in this instance. Anyone who questions anything you write?
Disagreements from readers go with the territory in the blog game. You'd better grow a thicker skin.
Um, Anon, thanks. I've been at this a little bit, so I kind of know how it goes. I think it was pretty obvious to everyone, from the context, that I was teasing. Obviously, for instance, it will not make me miserable if people help the Salvation Army get presents to people. And that was the line right above the internet hater line.
But, just so you know, teasing from me kind of goes with the territory in the blog game. You'd better grow a sense of humor, if you want to keep at this commenting business.
See how obnoxious that is? Ha. Christ.
But your sanctimony is cute. I hope you keep that up.
Well, at least during this whole thing you didn't say anyone was full of shit (speaking of obnoxious), so maybe progress is being made.
And you went from a position of claiming the SA was "dicking over kids" and "ruining Christmas for some kids" to actively soliciting support for the Angel Tree program. It was a long road to reason and you had to wade through your own sanctimony, but at least you got there.
Merry Christmas.
Oh, anon, I think we all know who I think is full of shit in this exchange, but it's so obvious I didn't feel like insulting the other folks here by pointing it out.
"Merry Christmas." Bless your heart, that made me laugh out loud. Do you have specialized training in passive-aggressiveness or do you just come by it naturally?
So, let me be clear. I didn't come around. The Salvation Army is dicking over kids. They are ruining Christmas for some children, knowingly. But they have also pledged to help a great many families and those families should not suffer.
If there's any redemption story here, let's hope it's the Salvation Army finally come to its senses.
In this case, I refuse to come to mine.
"we all know", huh? Because obviously everyone agrees with you? Does your ego come naturally or by specialized training?
I didn't say or imply that either you or I or anyone else was full of shit. Too bad you can't/won't extend the same courtesy. But then courtesy doesn't seem to be your bag. Calling people idiots and full of shit is more in your wheelhouse.
I like to make you laugh (like you did with me once I understood your "internet hater" "tease"..funny!), so here goes again...Merry Christmas. Happy Festivus even.
Your Father needs to look at Matthew 14 again. It clearly states in the scripture verse 15 "the Diciples came to Him saying "The place is desolate, and the time is already past; so send the multitude away, that they may go in to the villages to buy food for themselves." This makes it pretty clear that the people did not have any food as your Father speculates. Jesus did indeed produce enough food for 5000 men plus women and children. In this instance the men only were counted so the number fed could just as concieveably been around 10,000 people.
If your Father discounts this miracle of Jesus does he also discount his other miracles? There is at least one miracle that Jesus performed that no amount of speculation can dispute. That is the resurrection of Lazarus. The Bible clearly states that Lazarus had been in the tomb four days, and the people said that he stinks. This meant that the decomposition process had begun. Jesus could have come days earlier to the tomb of Lazarus but He delayed on purpose so that there would be no room for speculation concerning the resurrection. Lazarus was beyond any Medical redemption, but not beyond the abilties of Christ and God. Because Christ clearly calls upon God to help Him raise Lazarus.
I know for a fact that they have to have strict approval standards because so many greedy people try to apply duplicate/triple times under different names and addresses to cheat the system. The SA is a church that does amazing work.
this i know and complained about for years? i worked in the SA for years and see this for myself. i have written news program and other with no answer. Again i worked for SA. Good item is just tossed out. i have see people asked for chairs and other house hold item saying they had no money but were in need of be ding or kids clothing and the major says we do not donate and just throw it out. NOW i see it with my own eyes.i have seen up er brass re tier with 6 figures $ .this organization get govement handouts of millions and want the guys who drive truck to be on food stamps. you give the stamps to the kitchen for your food at the center. if that's no wrong. they told me they are a business and not a handout.???????? they will take you donation and toss it. if another organization like breast cancer has a store they will not call and ask if they want there overstock for them....again they say it business. they want donation but won't donate. I ask that you look into the store closely. Al
I love people who go on what Jesus, but I wonder what it is you do to help those little children, cause I am guessing that compared to what the Salvation Army does all over this country.....it aint much. Jesus also said Don't judge or you'll be judged by the same standard. Have a self righteous day y'all
