Monday, November 2, 2009
Politics / Woods GOP Goes After Handgun Database to Shake Down Gun Nuts
Posted by Jeff Woods on Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 10:57 AM
The AP's Erik Schelzig reports that copies of the state's database of more than 257,000 handgun permit holders were recently requested by the National Rifle Association, the state Republican Party and a direct mail contractor that has done extensive work for the GOP's legislative caucus. Caught in the act, House GOP caucus chairman Glen Casada insists he's against using these records to shake down Second Amendment freaks. So how come his vendor asked for the database?
Comments (27)
Showing 1-27 of 27
I hold state-issued licenses to hunt and fish, drive a car, and practice law. As far as I know, the databases for those privileges are open to the public. Based on the amount of junk mail I get from insurance and credit card companies, it seems like they must be commercially available. I don't see that the license database of concealed carry permit holders should be any different.
What's interesting about this story...apart from the hypocrisy...is the use to which the NRA and the GOP intend to put the data. Do they really believe CCP holders are so mindless that the mere possession of a permit turns them into single-issue voters? I find it hard to believe that there aren't both liberals and conservatives in the Tennessee pistol packin' universe, especially in a state where totin' iron is so commonplace.
Let's set aside the speculation and wishful thinking: Does anyone have any actual data on how CCP holders vote?
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Woods sees a conspiracy behind every permit, Mark. In the future just note the source.
Mark I can understand why the public would need to know if you have a drivers license or a law license but, why does the public need to know if you have a carry permit?
The public needs to know because we need to judge whether these guys are actually law-abiding citizens, as they claim, or whether they're shooting up places and creating mayhem.
"The public needs to know because we need to judge whether these guys are actually law-abiding citizens, as they claim, or whether they're shooting up places and creating mayhem."
THe guys causing mahem will just take the easy route and buy a gun in a parking lot, just like a bag of weed. Yeah Google logs all of our internet searches. We are tracked through our cell phones and the NSA can listen anytime they want through the speaker phone. All our background information is for sell and anyone can get it for about $50.00 The Patriot Act is still in full force, despite Obama's promises. It just kills me how you Obamabots were all for, and rightly so I will add, against the uncostitutional invasion of privacy when both of the Tricky Dicks (Cheney and Nixon) were in the White House. But now the chosen one is in well...
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
A carry permit, like a driver's license or a law license, is a government granted license to exercise significant and potentially dangerous power. An irresponsible driver behind the wheel of a two-ton automobile can easily kill or maim you. An irresponsible lawyer can screw up your life almost easier than anyone else. In each case, the right granted by the license is a privilege, not a right.
The same strictures apply to the carrying of a concealed firearm, even in the wake of the Supreme Court decision in the DC 2nd Amendment case, in which the Court found that states can still regulate the wearing and carrying of firearms. Although the vetting process for getting a CCP is not onerous, permit holders, like licensed drivers, are subject to a requirement of having been taught the relevant laws, and demonstrating some minimum level of responsibility and safe gun-handling, in exchange for receiving the privilege.
In my judgment, CCP holders cannnot reasonably object to the press and public having access to their names, as a check both to misconduct by the permit holder, and to misconduct by the state in inappropriately granting such licenses. That doesn't seem like too much to ask in exchange for receiving such a privilege.
I've heard the argument that disclosing CCP permit holders is the equivalent of telling crooks where they can steal a gun. That's like saying that disclosing licensed drivers is the equivalent of telling the same crooks where they can steal a car.
Last sentence in the first graf should have read "the POWER granted by the license is a privilege, not a right."
Sorry.
"In my judgment, CCP holders cannnot reasonably object to the press and public having access to their names, as a check both to misconduct by the permit holder, and to misconduct by the state in inappropriately granting such licenses. That doesn't seem like too much to ask in exchange for receiving such a privilege."
Nobody would be stupid enough to commit a crime with a gun they had registered. If they were, even the Nashville police could catch them. For you good people that never get out of Green Hills or Brentwood, you can buy a gun, a bag of weed or cocaine in a matter of minutes or at most an hour. All of these items have federal laws banning them. This is the real world in which we live...
Another thing, If someone did have a nice collection of desiralble guns, he would be a target for thieves. I have some very nice guitars that I sure as hell wouldnt want the public to know about
Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 shootings over roughly the past two years in this country, according to the Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group.
Tennessee newspapers have accounted for at least four killings this year by handgun permitees. If the records had been sealed, we wouldn't know this.
"Concealed handgun permit holders killed at least seven police officers and 44 private citizens in 31 shootings over roughly the past two years in this country, according to the Violence Policy Center, a gun control advocacy group."
Hmm, When I lived in New Orleans in 1994 and 95 there was over 1 murder every day of the year. Nearly all were gang related gun crimes, robberies or drug related. That was just one city in America. So 44 over 2 years in the entire country is really low. Most of these were domestic cases I’m sure. Those stats in no way show causation that permit holders are criminals and shouldnt have a right to privacy
There were also 5 0r 6 police officers indicted for murder in one of those years, as well and several more were busted for dealing drugs. One police woman and her partner robbed a restaurant and excuted the employees as they were on thier knees begging for their life. Luckily two of the kids hid somewhere and were able to identify her. AND then during the investigations, they found a slew of bodies under her buried under her house..
Most crimes are commited with unregistered guns because any fired bullet can be traced back to that gun and it's a closed case. Plus it's a hell of a lot easier to buy a gun in a parking lot and stick it down your pants than to get a permit.
"Another thing, If someone did have a nice collection of desiralble guns, he would be a target for thieves. I have some very nice guitars that I sure as hell wouldnt want the public to know about"
Anonymous, you aren't required to have a state-issued license to carry your guitars around. This thread is not about possession or ownership of guns, or guitars, a question which is well-settled. It's about making a public database maintained at taxpayer expense open to the public which pays for it.
I have a "nice collection" of guns. I have chosen not to apply for a carry permit. That's my decision. Those who have chosen to apply for the privilege of going legally armed ought not to complain about the minor annoyance of that fact being listed in a public record - just like hunters, fishermen, lawyers ... and drivers.
Ah Jeffery is plying his partial statistics BS from the hypocrites in the "Prevent Law Abiding Gun Ownership policy center again. Shame on you Jefferey or do you need another data spanking to be applied?
Yeah, let the spanking begin, but dont take this as making a pass at you ya lovable anti gun nut!
The FBI UCR, a non biased government agency identifies in 2008 41 officers feloniously killed http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2008/data/table_01.html.
What the insatnce of said situation http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2008/data/table_23.html
And last but not least, transcripts of each of these shootings http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2008/summaries.html
The following is true from the FBI reports, unlike where and how the review Jeffery references was performed, lets see the data Jeffery ole boy! Nor do you tell everyone the whoe story as how many of those licensed individuals you refernce were justifiable defense? Way too many loopholes in your data Jeffery.
29 attackers - felons
5 not clarified of which 1 was a domestic disturbance.
Weapons used
5 rifles
4 shotguns
18 pistols
1 bomb
3 officers own weapons
4 vehicles
Lets see you tie your facts into the unbiased FBI data Jeffery, oh wait, sorry, people like you never do, what was I thinking?
Now if these people were indeed licensed to carry, and no evidence states that is true, as 29 were felons, and no clear data to prove the other 5 were, these people by law were not allowed to touch a gun.
Then the failure rests with the people who are doing the reviewing and licensing. Then Jeffery, we should see you leading the charge to hold all those public officials criminally and civilly liable for allowing permits to those people as after all, regardless of the lies and subtrefuge the felons used, or the fact that over 90% of felons get their firearms from street buys (USDOJ Survey) the government did issue the permits!
See Jeffery wants to hold all gun owners liable for felons and idiots actions, yet he wont prosecute or hold accountable government employee's who fail in their job (licensing undesirables), such hypocrisy and unethical stands, poor Jeffery, what to do, what to say!
How does public access to these records benefit public safety other than to point out the failures of the responsible government employee's? Nada, bumpkus, denada, nyet (Jefferys favorite language from the motherland)!
Nope, all our favorite flaming anti gun , cough, cough, journalist is doing is projecting his unreasoning fears upon others. In the belief that an inanimate object has supernatural powers (a fetish)and that said inanimate object, a firearm has the ability to speak and that these voices command people to commit crimes, just by being in proximity to said inanimate object (also known as schizophrenia).
So again Jeffery, if this is true, then you really need serious counselling as we still have no fact based clue as to what hoplophobic point you are trying to make with this article and all the others you so ferverently supply for our amusement?
[b]Handgun seizure: TN GOPers acquire 250,000+ ownership records to target non-bona fide loyalists[/b]
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=179x4984
[i]Supporters of blocking public access to the names and addresses of Tennesseans with handgun carry permits appear to have a hard time keeping their hands off the records.[/i]
[i]Records obtained and reviewed by The Associated Press show that copies of the state's database of more than 257,000 handgun permit holders were recently requested by the state Republican Party and a direct mail contractor that has done extensive work for the GOP's legislative caucus.[/i]
Handgun seizure: TN GOPers acquire 250,000+ ownership records to target non-bona fide loyalists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=179x4984
Supporters of blocking public access to the names and addresses of Tennesseans with handgun carry permits appear to have a hard time keeping their hands off the records.
Records obtained and reviewed by The Associated Press show that copies of the state's database of more than 257,000 handgun permit holders were recently requested by the state Republican Party and a direct mail contractor that has done extensive work for the GOP's legislative caucus.
Nark, you wrote: "A carry permit, like a driver's license or a law license, is a government granted license to exercise significant and potentially dangerous power."
I submit that it is not. It is a narrowly-prescribed mechanism for the states to be reasonably certain that people carrying weapons lawfully, are actually LAWFUL citizens.
The ones who carry without a permit, most likely, are NOT.
As such, it brushes up against a guaranteed, pre-existing constitutional right. The people have accepted this restriction. If the people decide that they won't accept it anymore, then it is destined to be GONE.
It makes no sense, except from a law-enforcement perspective (whose power should be allocated JEALOUSLY by the people), to require the law-abiding to ask for 'permission' to exercise a guaranteed right.
Why should we be so encumbered, when scum who would just as soon shoot you to get your wallet (or to subjugate your body, as in the case of rape) will not, with an absolute degree of certainty, obey a permit scheme?
You anti-folks need to gain a bit of rationality, and lose your emotional lack of judgement regarding these matters. Natural Law rules, whether humanists like it or not, and the empirical evidence (supported by the DoJ's Uniform Crime Statistics) bears out my points.
Really. I mean, REALLY. Wake up.
Remember that many persons who have concealed handgun licenses are in danger...battered wives, parole officers, crime witnesses, etc.
Revealing their names and addresses is irresponsible and should be heavily sanctioned.
"That's like saying that disclosing licensed drivers is the equivalent of telling the same crooks where they can steal a car."
Very weak analogy Mark.
The prospective car-thief only needs a visual for the car. Finding the gun requires more effort. Indeed, the publication of permit holders provides a "steal this gun" list.
Folks,
The main purpose of sealing concealed handgun license records from public disclosure is to prevent criminals from 'casing' homes electronically in order to find handguns which can then be stolen.
The Republican, or Democrat, for that matter, use of such a database for poliical purposes is not then hypocritical. Handgun owners are in fear of criminals, not politicians, although sometimes one does wonder which group is the greater threat.
In Ohio, is was the Left leaning newspapers that published lists of CHL holders in newspapers, putting both the homeowners and others at risk. Evidently some felt publishing the names and addresses of CHL holders somehow protected the public or at least embarrased CHL holders.
The publishing of the lists was believed to have resulted in the murder of at least one CHL holder and several robberies.
Philip
Aw, the socialistic moderators here wont allow a data spanking to occur, such hypocrisy.
Afraid to compare your unsupportable and irrelevant data against unbiased government data?
Didnt like the psychology laid out of projection identification, fetish, and schizophrenia all symptoms of rabid anti gun rantings and ravings, in a pathetic attempt to remain relevant?
Wont hold the people responsible for issuing the permits, where the real failure belongs, but emphatically wants everyone else to assume responsibility for other peoples actions, again the classic definition of hypocrisy.
My parents live in Tennessee, they are old, they are rich. When thir time comes (they are in their late 80's), and I truly hope not for a long time, then it will be my pleasure to start a bill board campaign exposing the commercial appeal, or wherever the current owners, editor and this so called journalist work for exactly who, and what they are and treat them just as they have treated the law abiding citizens of Tennessee. Oh ye reap what you have sowed.
Dear Folks,
In researching use of government databases by criminals, I thought you'd find this interesting...
http://epic.org/privacy/drivers/
Although it does not directly address the issue of CHL data bases, it does demonstrate that criminals DO use information in the public domain to facilitate their work.
Also, in response to that posted by some, driver license data bases are not, as per Federal Law, to be made public.
Hope this was useful.
Thanks,
Philip
When the dollar goes the way of the AMC Pacer, and when we hit 50% unemployment these mind numb gun control bots will be begging for them.
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