Thursday, June 18, 2009
Hargrove Washed in the Blood: On Murder, Redemption and Justice
Posted by Brantley Hargrove on Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 2:07 PM
At this point, I feel like arguing the validity of religion really only distracts from a much more interesting debate, so I'm going to put it in Christian terms:
Is God's grace and redemption a substitute for the forgiveness of those you've wronged? Should that forgiveness be sought before one is truly absolved? If, as in this particular case, redemption and justice do not coexist, is he still accountable to his fellow man? Are all sins, as one commenter asserts, equal? And does someone who committed the gravest offense against man and God deserve unqualified forgiveness if, as he claims, God has cleansed his sin?
Pastor Davis is a high-profile figure -- a public figure, if you want to get technical about it. Some commenters and callers say it was wrong to tell the story, even though the events discussed were very formative. Not to mention the fact that it's his story, "Prison to Priesthood," that sets a prime example of God's inexhaustible capacity for forgiveness in the minds of his parishioners.
So, what do you think, Pith readers, concerning the aforementioned questions? Is redemption a substitute for accountability?
And to answer a question left by one commenter as to why I didn't include Davis' attempts to reconcile with the family: Because Ron Liles said it wasn't true.
Comments (24)
Showing 1-24 of 24
You're not going to hear me say anything kind or sympathetic about this man, who preaches division and represents exactly what's wrong with evangelical religion today. I feel this way regardless of this man's stature as brutal murderer who got off light. He blames his violent act on drugs and demons - the only demon I see is this divisive charlatan, and the only people on drugs I see are the masses sitting in the pews of that church listening to him. They are anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim, anti-Gay, anti-liberal, and pro war. These folks wouldn't want a man with this background living in their own neighborhood, but there he is with huge captive crowd every Sunday, spewing his divisive rhetoric. Shameless hypocrisy is alive and well in the world of the religious right, and we see it over, and over, and over - right Swaggart? Bakker? Haggard? Sen. Ensign?
like
dislike
I admittedly have no idea what the Christian take on this is.
In Judaism though, they always explicitly say in the Yom Kippur service that the Day of Atonement only atones for sins against God, and that you can't be atoned for sins against another person until you've sought that person's forgiveness and done what you could to make amends. You're actually supposed to spend the ten days between Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur going around to those you've wronged during the year to ask forgiveness.
I can't imagine Christianity is much different in that respect.
I did wonder though, what brought about the story now? Maury Davis sounds like he fits the very definition of a sociopath, not to mention a hypocrite. But what caused the story to come up now?
This is a tough one. I'm no fan of Maury Davis, but I am a Christian. I hope he has repented of his sin, and if he has, then God has forgiven him. But forgiveness from God does not take away the earthly consequences of sin, and also does not abrogate one's responsibility to be reconciled with those you have sinned against. In fact, in my tradition, the fruits of repentance are one's attempts to make amends with those whom you have sinned against. If Davis has not tried to seek forgiveness from his victim's family, if he has not tried to make amends in some way to those he most directly harmed, then I would counsel him that he may need to do some penance. Jesus said to go and make peace with your brother before you come to the altar.
I owe the man who murdered my sister nothing. Nothing. And it is not my place to forgive him or not. It is my sister's. She was the one cheated out of her life.
You write as if forgiveness is something that is earned. It is not. It is an act of G*d, given to us.
That leaves the human moral questions of what one should do concerning the victims of your transgressions, how you deal with the consequences of your acts, and is his behavior now moral, or not.
Should Pastor Maury Davis seek forgiveness from the family of the victim? Of course. Such an act of seeking forgiveness will reinforce the pain caused by sin in the good pastors pastor's psyche, it will give the family a chance to forgive him, an important step in healing.
Finally, is Pastor Maury Davis acting in a way that a Christian should act? Answer that for yourselves.
For me, Christianity is the child of the most famous radical in history. The idea is that you accept other people as fellow children of G*d, just as worthy of the love of G*d as you. Try mixing that with disdain for people different from you.
I have a problem with people who try to pigeon hole God. I personally do not condone this type of action for anyone and I beleive that attempts have been made to ask for forgiveness for this heinous crime. However, the forgiveness of a fammily or any other person in this matter is hard to get. I myself have had a problem dealing with a crime on of my sisters in the past. It took me a long time to forgive this person. I did forgive them and what helped me was the forgiveness I have recieved myself from God. For no sins of what man calls this magnitude, but forgiveness none the elss.
If we want to see the level of forgiveness that God issues...we need to look no further than the Bible itself. Paul was one of the most despised of men to new Chirstians. He was actually hunting them down and having them put to death. Yet God used this murderer to spread His word and bring notice to all people that Gods forgiveness is above all forgiveness. Does that mean that this crime is any easier to take. NO!! , but it is hard for us to forgive the way God does.
I am glad that God has forgiveness for everyone...especailly me and all we have to do is repent and ask. This is exactly the message he talks about in his pulpit. That if God can forgive me...He can forgive anyone and that in itself is the key to what we as Christians beleive. There is always someone out there who beleives that they have commited unforgiveable crimes and can not be reconciled with God, but this lets us know that God can forgive whe n one else can. The only difference is that His forgiveness is eternal.
Just a quick note...We have to remember that when we die we will be faced with the same forgiveness that we have extended to our fellow man.
All this forgiveness stuff is a load of baloney. There is no conscious divinity, no anthropomorphic god and even if there was, it wouldn't care about the deeds and squabblings of monkeys such as ourselves.
That preacher is a dispicable person and his followers are half-wit sheep. Why does an innocent doctor get shot down in church and this shithead is allowed to live?
Just a quick note... we more than likely cease to exist at the moment of our deaths and thats just fine by me.
Burrito,
Then it matters not a whit that those who have the power to do so go ahead and live with no regard for their fellow men or for any future generations. So much for worrying about global warming. I'm off to turn up the air conditioner.
In the grand scheme of things, absolutely not. But that doesn't make empathy any less worthwhile.
GoldnI, we got a tip from someone that Davis had a colorful background. So, I looked into it.
This was a satisfying exposure of a truly evil man.
But the amount of unattributed lifting from the Dallas Morning News is embarrassing to behold. See URL below. This piece could have done readers more of a service by linking to that story and citing what Davis had to say for himself in it.
Still more embarrassing is the fact that neither Hargrove nor the Dallas reporter from whom he cribbed knew that there was a nationwide moratorium on the death penalty, imposed by the Supreme Court in 1972, in effect at the time Davis killed the woman. No murder committed in 1975 could have resulted in a death sentence.
Lines in the story like "the DA is dead-set on sending him to the chair" and "the rest of the jury want to execute Davis" cannot be accurate.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/047909dnmetkillerpastor.3d02476.html
Burrito,
'Responsibly' by what standard? Even if you can construct an argument for some standards based on the history and traditions of America, you would be unable to justify anything other than moral equivalence for cultures that practice slavery or the supression of women or that engage in aggression against their neighbors. After all, in your world, who has a standard from which to judge?
Personally, I'm not really sure of Maury Davis has changed all that much. I used to work for him at Cornerstone and I'm on the fence about him. He's not too keen on supporting others in ministry positions. For instance, Andrew Wharton left Cornerstone to form a new church because he felt it was his calling. God gave him a purpose, but Maury got angry & refused to financially support or endorse Pastor Wharton's church. And to those in the congregation who supported Wharton, Davis said something to the effect of "feel free to explore other temples, but don't come back here." It seemed odd that a preacher would admonish the creation of a new church, which would only serve to further God's word.
Also, I started working for him at the age of 18 for a meager $7/hr. He gave me 2 rules to abide by: never miss a church service and never discuss salaries with other employees. Well one day I broke rule #2 and discovered that the woman hired a month before me was making $15/hr for doing the same job!!! Then a year later, I was in a relationship with a man I thought I'd marry (so wrong on that one!) and got pregnant. So I was upset about it & knew I'd start showing soon so I went to pastor Davis about it, looking for guidance and reassurance... But, he fired me. So here I was, 19, newly pregnant,suddenly single, scared, feeling guilty, and...unemployed.
***ON TOPIC***
It baffled me to no end why a man who preaches forgiveness, grace and mercy would be so completely incapable of offering the same to a scared teenager in a very tough situation.
Maury Davis is a good pastor with a talent for oration and sermons that would inspire the stubbornest person. He truly has a God-given gift. BUT, he is not good at just being a normal human being. He still has a lightening-fast temper, so even if God has forgiven him, he hasn't taken to many steps to adjust what got him in trouble in the first place: his temper. He has no control over his own anger.
But I do believe God has forgiven him, he must have as God is forgiving by nature. But forgiveness does NOT equal justice or atonement. You can be forgiven all you want to be, but if you don't atone for your sins, you're never going to live up to the potential God has given you. You will always be bound by your guilt and/or the other person's suffering and I do believe God takes that into account in the end. So if Davis hasn't made things right with Mr.Liles, maybe that's why his past is still chasing & why he still has anger issues. If you harbor enough guilt, you're bound to turn that into anger and take it out in other forms.
I don't really understand why people say all sins are equal. Maybe I'm just more influenced by the legal system and think that there are varying degrees of sin. (Don't catholics use an x number amount of hail marys depending on the severity of the sin as well?) But its also entirely possible that they're all the same in Gods eyes... Who knows?
But in the end, the only people who know whether Pastor Davis has been forgiven by devine grace are himself and God.
And the only people who know whether human justice has been served are Mr.Liles and God. -kinda tricky!
Sorry I forgot to mention 2 things that are necessary to my original post:
1) The reason he fired me when I was pregnant was because as an employee, I represented the church and was held to a higher standard, and being pregnant out of wedlock didn't meet that standard. However, I still feel like it was unfair to be essentially shunned for a misstep that changed my life forever in the best way.
2) The reason I was talking about Davis' temper (or the reason I know about it) is because I've seen it. When you work for him, what you do MUST be perfect. If it isn't, you will be subject to one of his outburts... And his temper flashes during his sermons from time-to-time.
My family & I were member there for 7 years, but eventually enough was enough and we left. My grandmother sent me the link to the original article
Fact Boy, since you seem to be an authority, is it considered unattributed lifting if the lawyer representing Maury Davis gives you a quote that is identical to one he gave another reporter because he has, undoubtedly, told this story many, many times? Or that two reporters investigating the SAME story will turn up the SAME facts? I'm just curious.
Plagiarism is a pretty serious charge, and if you're gonna throw it around, you might want to consider whether or not it's actually true before you trash someone.
8 years for killing someone, but Bernie Madoff gets a hundred and fifty years. America is truly screwed up!
it is a shame that the Scene, as liberal as it is, takes the time to personally have a op-ed writer, because we all can see that hargrove is far from a reporter, go on a mission to run a pastor from town. Jesus forgives us of our wrongdoing, and it is his job to pass judgment, not all of you other liberal hacks here on this post. I only hope you find the way and you don't fall under the wrong hand of God. Liberalism is a mental disorder, and the Scene in inflatrated with it. Look at where it has us. . .higer taxes, more spending, unemployment at a all time high, big corporate companies and wellfare reciepents getting all the benefits while the working class get stuck every way possible. Thanks liberals, I can't wait until the 2010 and 2012 revolution and get your one termer socialist who practices obaminusm profoundly.
I hope "Reverand" Davis is using some of the massive profit he is raking in from the gullible Madisonites to fund research on how to get a camel through that darned needle eye. Hopefully, somewhere on the property of his $900.000.00 (tax estimate) estate he is breeding some minature camels and forging some giant needles.
You might want to drive by and see for yours... oh that's right, his 5,834 sq. foot home at 141 Bella Vista Drive in Goodletsville is in a gated community. So, you can't get in. I guess the "Reverand" wants to make sure the rabble is kept out --exactly like 'ol Jesus would have it.
While I may not know much on this particular situation, I do know what the Bible teaches.
Since you used scriptural terms for your argument, it seems reasonable to assume that you are familiar with church and the Bible; hence, I will continue with that.
Mark 11:25
25 Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father, who is in heaven, may also forgive you your transgressions.
Luke 17:3-4
3 Be careful. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him.
4 If he sins against you seven times in the day, and seven times returns, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”"
Ephesians 4:31-32
31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
While I cannot speak for Pastor Davis' salvation, he seems earnestly sorrowful for his crime, and the justice system seems to think that he has paid for it. Now, now matter of suffering Pastor Davis endures, even death, it will NEVER be enough for the victim's son. Not even his death will bring his mother back. His only hope of peace is to forgive Davis and move on. It is not an easy task, and therefore he needs to pray for God's help in forgiving him. Forgiveness can be one of the single hardest things a person can do for another person; yet, we are commanded to.
This kind of command is the kind that is often attributed with its implications in our understanding and day-to-day life. It has been said, that unforgiveness, when held in one's heart, has produced a number of physical maladies, like temporary blindness, seizures, etc. It eats away at you like a cancer. That is why God commands us to do it (aside from the fact that it is said to strive to be like Christ); it is for our own betterment.
The son of the widow needs to find forgiveness to heal and properly deal with the grief.
To answer your question in your terms, one's being cleansed (truly) is between them and God. It does not relieve your hurt that they are forgiven by God, and that does not undo the grievous act, though I'm sure Davis wishes it did. However, if one is forgiven, who are we to withhold our forgiveness. Redemption deals with accountability with God. Man is to follow and attempt to be like God, so no. It does not negate accountability, but rather fulfills it.
If you have any questions about anything, please feel free to e-mail me.
this guy should have been in jail for the rest of his life... this story is sick... he did not have any drugs in his system at the time of the murder... he is a liar and a cold blooded killer and that will never change no matter how much he repents... the fact that thousands of people go to his church and give him their hard earned money shows you how corrupt and brainwashing christianity really is... this guys is pathetic and should have his tax exempt status taken away for preaching on behalf of right wing politicians... seperation of church and state, people... the people that support this guy are basically saying it is ok to murder others just as long as you pray for forgiveness -- just horrible and pathetic!!!
