Thursday, February 19, 2009
Hannan / Hicks From the Sticks / Politics Local Legal Blogger to Obama Conspiracists: Overruled!
Posted by Caleb Hannan on Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:18 AM
No reasonable person actually believes Obama is not a U.S. citizen. GoldnI over at Silence Isn't Golden understands this. That's why, initially, she ridiculed Eric Swafford, Stacey Campfield and the rest of the Fantastic Four. As a blogger cum law student, her basic point was thus: If you bring a lawsuit against someone, the burden of proof is on you, the plaintiff. Not the other way around.
Prodded by a commenter to back up her argument with actual research, GoldnI, with help from a really expensive database, came up with the definitive breakdown for why, legally speaking, four of Tennessee's elected officials are full of shit. An entertaining, if eye-glazing, treatise complete with legal jargon like denied certiorari. Yikes.
The conclusion:
...this isn't to say that a private citizen can't challenge the eligibility of a presidential candidate, but the proper avenue in which to do that is in state courts (lower thresholds for proving injury), prior to the election. By what I can tell, this lawsuit is being filed in federal courts. Not only does recent case law firmly hold that these defendants do not have standing to bring such a lawsuit, but they do not apparently have any evidence on which to bring their claims beyond a general suspicion.So, case closed?
Comments (48)
Showing 1-48 of 48
You and I have to show our original, sealed birth certificate dozens of times during our lives. Obama has spent hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars trying to prevent the release of his background papers. Why?
Because where there is smoke, there is fire. We clearly see the smoke - we WILL find the fire.
Deal with it.
like
dislike
Hundreds of millions? You mean the stimulus package is being used to fund his obfuscation of this very important document?
Why don't you channel all of this energy you have to something useful, like building a better car or starting an english only landscaping business?
Caleb:
How old are you? If Obama is indeed ineligible, as I believe, your children and your children's children will be in a heap of problems. Why are you guys always defending Mr. Obama? Is it that you are secretly scared that he might be ineligible. It only takes one press conference and a $10.00 piece of paper to prove all of us tin hat conspirators wrong. I will be happy to be wrong. 40 legal actions later Mr. Obama has not done that. I mean, Caleb, does that not make you doubt? Get a life!
It wasn't just a regular commenter who told me to do my research, it was Campfield himself. He's "The Rep". That was the funniest part about it.
Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution reads: "No Person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States."
There are numerous questions as to Obama's citizen status raising suspicion and doubt about Obama constitutional qualification to be president. To settle these questions Mr. Obama must produce proof of citizenship!
Documents that must be produced include;
(a) a certified copy of "vault" (original long version) birth certificate;
(b) certified copies of all reissued and sealed birth certificates in the names Barack Hussein Obama, Barry Soetoro, Barry Obama, Barack Dunham and Barry Dunham;
(c) a certified copy Certification of Citizenship;
(d) a certified copy Oath of Allegiance taken upon age of maturity;
(e) certified copies of admission forms for Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law School; and
(f) certified copies of any court orders or legal documents changing his name from Barry Soetoro.
It is reasonable that these documents should be produced considering that his father is Kenyan, his adoptive father is Indonesian, and his grandmother claims to have been present at his birth in Kenya. If he is a natural born citizen then producing these documents should not be any problem.
These allegations will not go away until Mr. Obama produces proof to federal authorities and the public. If he will not do so voluntarily he must be compelled by every means available. Our representatives have sworn an oath to support and defend the Constitution.
We The People are demanding they make every effort, both public and private, to resolve this fundamental Constitutional question.
This Obama insanity has got to stop. The eligibility issue is the only legal way to stop this craziness and reverse the stupid, naive decisions made over the past month. If it proven that he is legit, then God help us all. If not, get him out of the whitehouse.
And apparently Campfield isn't the only one who doesn't understand the concept of burden of proof, as in, it's on the accuser and not the accused.
President Obama has not spent hundreds of millions of dollars, nor has he spent millions of dollars to hide his birth certificate. It was released, posted online, and verified by the Hawaii Secretary of State as being a legimate document. There is also a birth announcement in the local newspaper.
Secondly the United States Supreme Court had this issue brought before them and rejected it. Now remember that this is a divided court where Conservatives are in the majority.
So please for the love of God and Country stop this foolishness and get to taking care of the business of the State.
Well he has spent thousands upon thousands defending his BC and Univ records. Personally I beilieve he is hiding something. Maybe he got a loan or 2 as a foreign student. It does make one wonder.
Just look on Factcheck.org you HATERS!!! The birth certificate is there. And someone also said they saw it!!! And that was ON THE NEWS!! Anyone who does this is a racist. HATERS!!!
Just look on Factcheck.org you HATERS!!! The birth certificate is there. And someone also said they saw it!!! And that was ON THE NEWS!! Anyone who does this is a racist. HATERS!!!
Bill Bill Bill, Maybe you just can't stand the fact that maybe, just maybe, you have elected a fraud. Just because we believe he has something to hide, won't release his documents (That BC online is NOT a real BC)and the fact that has used several different names that we know of does not make us racist and haters. Just realist. Just answer one question. Why won't he release these records?
Why don't all you ridiculers channel your energy into something useful like ensuring OUR PERSONAL LIBERTIES or UPHOLDING THE CONSTITUTION?
Stop this micro management by the federal government of all our personal affairs. Who among you wants to live on the government dole?
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.
Also if you want to call names then start saying it to people's faces, see how long that lasts, you'll get a shot to the jaw.
If "the birth certificate is on FactCheck", then why doesn't he just give it to the court when one of his employers asks to see it?
Calling people names won't take the place of thinking. Taxpayers are asking Obama for the same document they'd need to hire anyone. He has refused. That's the smoking gun.
Re: "You and I have to show our original, sealed birth certificate dozens of times during our lives. Obama has spent hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars trying to prevent the release of his background papers. Why?"
First, regarding the original, sealed birth certificate. No we do not. Many states, if not most, now send out only summaries of the original birth certificate, which they call Certificates of Live Birth or Certifications of Live Birth.
In Hawaii, ALL that they send out if you ask for a copy of your birth certificate, is the certification of live birth, which is what Obama posted.
How do I know? I ASKED the Department of Health of Hawaii. You can check, by asking your own questions by e-mail at vr-info@doh.hawaii.gov.
What this means is that unless Obama has his original birth certificate issued to his parents from the time of his birth, and has not mislaid it, all that he can show is the Certification of Live Birth, which is what he showed.
But, not to worry, that is a perfectly legal document, which shows that he was born in Hawaii, and is accepted by all government agencies in Hawaii, by other states, and by the US State Department for issuing passports.
So all the questions about why doesn’t he post the long-form birth certificate have two simple answers:
(1) The Certification of Live Birth is THE official birth certificate, it shows that he was born in Hawaii, and it is legally sufficient to prove it; and
(2) Unless he has kept the original birth certificate and not mislaid it, all that he can post is what Hawaii will send him, which is only the Certification of Live Birth, which is what he has already posted.
Now, as to the myth that he has spend lots of money on defending lawsuits (I believe you said "taxpayer dollars"--NO, it is from the campaign contributions many of us made), that is not true.
There was only one case, the case in Hawaii brought by Andy Martin, that sought only to get the original birth certificate. He lost, but he continues to appeal. In that case, Martin sued Hawaii, the state of Hawaii, and he has never said that Obama's lawyers took an active part in the case, filing motions or anything. (So how could Obama spend much money?)
All the other cases were to stop the election, to stop the certification, or stop the electoral college, or stop the Inauguration. Some more recent cases charge that Obama would not be eligible to be president even if he were born in Hawaii, which Obama is naturally defending (He WAS born in Hawaii, by the way). But where are the "millions of taxpayer dollars"?????
Re: "If "the birth certificate is on FactCheck", then why doesn't he just give it to the court when one of his employers asks to see it?"
Answer: He has, the birth certificate on FactCheck (and it is a birth certificate, which is defined as an official government document showing details of birth), is what he has posted, which is the Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii, which is an official document and the ONLY official birth document that Hawaii issues these days.
You ask why doesn't he show it to a court?
Answer: If a court asks to see it, of course he will.
As I pointed out earlier, there are no cases asking simply to see his birth certificate. If there were any, he would show his Certification of Live Birth. (IN Hawaii, Andy Martin claims the RIGHT to look into Obama's personal birth records, which the state of Hawaii is fighting on the grounds that it has the right to keep those files private. Obama's lawyers are apparently sitting in on this case, but it is not against Obama, nor do they play an active role.)
Re: "and his grandmother claims to have been present at his birth in Kenya."
NO she did NOT.
If you are referring to the grandmother tape, this tape actually says that he was born in Hawaii. This occurs right after the interviewer asks the clear question: “Where was he born?”
To hear the full recording of the Obama grandmother interview, go to: ?” http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/01/independent-grandmother-transcript/ (Click on full Sarah Obama Tape.)
There are quite a few recordings and transcripts that cut the tape at the five minute mark. It is important to go to the full recording, which runs about nine minutes. You might ask yourself why anyone would want to cut the tape at five minutes when the answer to the question WHERE WAS HE BORN is after five minutes. The answer, sadly, is that they are not anxious for people to make up their own minds, they want to create zealots who believe that Obama is not eligible.
Some say that there are other Kenyan relatives who said that Obama was born in Kenya, but this cannot be proven. Only WND has said this, and WND has not shown the interviews to anyone.
There are no physical documents showing that he was born in Kenya, but the theorists explain this by saying that the Kenya government is part of the conspiracy and that it has blocked access to those documents. The very fact that Kenya had blocked access to certain documents would be possible to prove or disprove. WND’s claim that the files were blocked has not been substantiated by any news agency other than WND.
Seriously people, there is no point in arguing with these crackpots. Despite your best informed efforts they will not believe you because they are not interested in the truth, they are only interested in stirring up trouble because they're pissed that they lost the election. Over and done. Please.
The State of Hawaii has announced that they are holding the vault or original birth certificate. The State has said they cannot release it without the release signed by Obama. So to continue to say that the vault copy is not attainable, or the Certification of Live Birth is valid for any reason is just nonsense. If Obama signed the release the vault copy would be produced and it is the only document that included the place of birth, the name of the hospital, the doctors and any witnesses. These are all facts that could then be verified. These same facts are conveniently left off the short form abstract of birth or Certification of Live Birth as it is called.
Here is a Hawaiian land program that shows how to pay $10.00 and received a certified copy of a birth certificate, read pages 7-11:
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/Loaa%20Ka%20Aina%20Hoopulapula.pdf
Note that a certified copy can be obtained for $10.00.
As to Obama spending legal fees go to the original Berg case filed in Federal Court and look at the list of three law firms that showed up. Even better, go to the Alan Keyes case in Sacramento Superior court on the web and change the year to 2008 and enter case 80000096, then read the pro hac vice paper submitted by Obama's attorney wherein, under penalty of perjury, the attorney states he has been traveling the country fighting these lawsuits. Maybe he is doing this pro bono.
By the way, the origin of this issue came from Hillary in and her supporters as long ago as last February. So saying this is a republican thing is not accurate. The democratic committee and Obama chose to place the nation at risk by their failure to vet Obama and placed his name on the primaries despite that fact. It is Obama and the democratic national committee that are at fault for this crisis.
Big John says:
...the vault copy would be produced and it is the only document that included the place of birth, the name of the hospital, the doctors and any witnesses. These are all facts that could then be verified. These same facts are conveniently left off the short form abstract of birth or Certification of Live Birth as it is called.
___
But as I asked you earlier, if the Certification of Live Birth is a valid document, then it proves he was born in Hawaii. What then would be the relevance of "the name of the hospital, the doctors and any witnesses"?
The TRUTH IS--- If you don't have anything to hide, you don't have to hide ANYTHING! The Obots can scream how crazy we Americans are, all they want. they can call us tinfoil hatters if they want. At least our tinfoil hats keep the Marxist BS out of our hair & ears! Anybody that doesn't want to see any Presidents records, has to know that there is something to hide and they want to keep it hidden. You can hide a lie for a while, but not forever! The Truth is Out There! The TRUTH WILL SET US FREE! F R E E D O M !!!
Re: "The State of Hawaii has announced that they are holding the vault or original birth certificate. The State has said they cannot release it without the release signed by Obama."
No they did NOT say that. They said that they cannot release even the Certification of Live Birth except to the people on a specific list. That's all. That refers merely to the Certification.
They have said, to me, and you can check, that they will not release the original birth certificate to ANYONE. (That includes Obama.) Yes, they have the original. No, they will not release it. NOT to ANYONE.
Sure, maybe he could sue to get it. Maybe he could ask for special legislation in Hawaii to allow him to get it, but right now under the Hawaii law and regulations, it will not release the original birth certificate to anyone.
It will release the Certification of Live Birth to Obama, and it did, and he posted it.
So all the questions about why doesn’t he post the long-form birth certificate have two simple answers:
(1) The Certification of Live Birth is THE official birth certificate, it shows that he was born in Hawaii, and it is legally sufficient to prove it; and
(2) Unless he has kept the original birth certificate and not mislaid it, all that he can post is what Hawaii will send him, which is only the Certification of Live Birth, which is what he has already posted.
This guy puts it better than I can:
A posting from Andrew Walden, publisher of the Hawaii Free Press, a right-wing blog based in Hawaii.
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/92/Barack-Obama-Born-in-Hawaii.aspx
Barack Obama: Born in Hawai`i
by Andrew Walden
It is time to focus on REAL issues, not imaginary ones.
A fairly impressive internet industry has sprung up claiming that Obama was born in either Kenya or Indonesia. This is nonsense, which distracts from the broadly unexplored story of Obama’s upbringing. This kind of nonsense has emerged because the McCain campaign chose not to raise the many questions about Barack Obama’s numerous hard-left alliances. Barack Obama was born in Hawai`i, August 4, 1961 at Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu.
Obama’s birth certificate posted online is exactly the same birth certificate everybody in Hawai`i gets from the State Department of Health. It is not forged. There is nothing unusual about the design or the texture. In addition to the birth certificate, the August 13, 1961 Honolulu Advertiser also carries an announcement of Obama’s birth. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin also carries the same announcement. Both papers require submission of a copy of the birth certificate to print a birth announcement.
End Quote
Y'all are right. I'll have to take the hit on the 'hundreds of millions' error. It is, however, hundreds of thousands. Why?
You are in error on "burden of proof".
There are lots and lots of federal case cites which prove that a plaintiff can proceed when the plaintiff has been denied the material facts.
For example, the vast majority of cases involving federally regulated toxic hazardous substances involve overcoming "trade secret" chemicals and simply proving that, but for the fact that defendant is fraudulently concealing material facts, the plaintiff would have a cause of action.
Remember Tobacco litigation? The attorneys claimed tobacco was harmless!
We, the People v President Obama
All the Plaintiff has to do is to prove that the Defendant OWES A LEGAL DUTY TO DISCLOSE THE CONCEALED MATERIAL FACTS WHICH WOULD GIVE THE PLAINTIFF A LEGAL CAUSE OF ACTION.
The LEGAL DUTY TO DISCLOSE MATERIAL FACTS is found in the Certification of Live Birth of Barack Hussein Obama in the lower right hand corner in tiny print:
[HRS 338-13(b), 338-19]
Please go to a free online law library at
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov
The reason for this legal notice is to inform people that, if you bother to read the entire text of the statutes, there is a legal right to contest the certificate in a judicial or administrative proceeding to determine if the facts on the certificate are in error, and the certificate should be voided.
HRS 338-13(b) is subject to the requirements of HRS 338-16, 338-17 and 338-18.
Be certain to read the entire text of these statutes and HRS 338-19.
What is most important, also, is to find out why President Obama did not obtain this certificate UNTIL AFTER SEPTEMBER 11, 2001.
See the legal notice (Rev. 11/01)LASER on this certificate. Where was he that day?
Why did he obtain this certificate AFTER HE WAS OVER 40 YEARS OLD?
Re: "Here is a Hawaiian land program that shows how to pay $10.00 and received a certified copy of a birth certificate, read pages 7-11:
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/Loaa%20Ka%20Aina%20Hoopulapula.pdf"
I asked them about that, the department (DHHL). I asked what happens if the applicant no longer has the original birth certificate, can she or he get a copy of the original?
The answer was that unless the Department of Health will send it out, the applicant must have a copy of the original from the time of birth (saved by the family), or they will try to find other evidence that the person was of Hawaiian racial background because they accept that the Department of Health sends out only the Certification of Live Birth. ONLY the COLB. That is all it sends out.
Re: "The State of Hawaii has announced that they are holding the vault or original birth certificate. The State has said they cannot release it without the release signed by Obama."
NO it did not. It said that it could not release the Certification of Live Birth to anyone who was not on a list of eligible people, one of whom is Obama.
It said to me, and you can check of course, that it will not release a copy of the Original Birth Certificate to anyone, ANYONE, anyone -- including Obama.
You can check, here is the e-mail: vr-info@doh.hawaii.gov
Now you might say that Obama could get the original by bringing legal action against Hawaii, or by sponsoring special Hawaii legislation to force the release, but barring such unusual action, Obama can only get what everyone else gets--the certification of live birth, which is what was posted.
So all the questions about why doesn’t he post the long-form birth certificate have two simple answers:
(1) The Certification of Live Birth is THE official birth certificate, it shows that he was born in Hawaii, and it is legally sufficient to prove it; and
(2) Unless he has kept the original birth certificate and not mislaid it, all that he can post is what Hawaii will send him, which is only the Certification of Live Birth, which is what he has already posted.
This guy puts it better than I can:
A posting from Andrew Walden, publisher of the Hawaii Free Press, a right-wing blog based in Hawaii.
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/92/Barack-Obama-Born-in-Hawaii.aspx
Barack Obama: Born in Hawai`i
by Andrew Walden
It is time to focus on REAL issues, not imaginary ones.
A fairly impressive internet industry has sprung up claiming that Obama was born in either Kenya or Indonesia. This is nonsense, which distracts from the broadly unexplored story of Obama’s upbringing. This kind of nonsense has emerged because the McCain campaign chose not to raise the many questions about Barack Obama’s numerous hard-left alliances. Barack Obama was born in Hawai`i, August 4, 1961 at Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu.
Obama’s birth certificate posted online is exactly the same birth certificate everybody in Hawai`i gets from the State Department of Health. It is not forged. There is nothing unusual about the design or the texture. In addition to the birth certificate, the August 13, 1961 Honolulu Advertiser also carries an announcement of Obama’s birth. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin also carries the same announcement. Both papers require submission of a copy of the birth certificate to print a birth announcement.
End Quote
Even if the mythical "vault long-fom" birth certificate exists and Obama gave it to Jerome Corsi or Orly Taitz, Birthers would claim that Obama had it altered somehow during one of his recent trips to Hawaii.
Some rightwingers believe he murdered his ailing grandma, who died the day before the election. They'll say anything, literally anything, and get all miffed when you ask for evidence.
Paranoids of this caliber aren't capable of rational thought.
Cris Ericson says: "What is most important, also, is to find out why President Obama did not obtain this certificate UNTIL AFTER SEPTEMBER 11, 2001...Where was he that day?
Why did he obtain this certificate AFTER HE WAS OVER 40 YEARS OLD?"
Where were YOU on 9/11, Cris? And are you really an American?
By the way, I was well over 40 years old (62, in fact) when I sent off for my Texas birth certificate to replace the one I thought I'd lost during our recent move to a new state.
And I was home on 9/11, but I can't prove it.
I'm a suspicious character, for sure.
Re: "Why did he obtain this certificate AFTER HE WAS OVER 40 YEARS OLD?"
He must have obtained an earlier copy to get his passport, and he did have a passport.
So why did he get another copy after 9/11 or long after 9/11 or after 40, as you say.
Obviously he must have lost the earlier copy, and he needed another. So he got one.
Sunny says:
Some rightwingers believe he murdered his ailing grandma, who died the day before the election.
__
I even read a couple of claims recently that it was because she had witnessed his birth in Kenya, even though it was his other grandmother who was falsely quoted to that effect.
It's really incredible...
Re: "Some rightwingers believe he murdered his ailing grandma, who died the day before the election."
For the REALLY extreme, one that I saw claimed that Hawaii wasn't really a state or even part of the USA because the referendum or plebiscite that the US held back in the 1880s or 1890s to transfer Hawaii from being a Kingdom to being part of the USA was illegal.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/HAWAII/hawaii.html
To which we can say, yeh maybe, but it is part of the USA now.
In any case, there are a whole lot of crazy people out there.
Yes, that's right. What's interesting about this whole thing is that it is not driven by evidence.
It starts out with the conviction that Obama -- for some reason -- is not qualified to be president. From that point on it diverges; different people come up with different theories, often contradicting each other.
All they agree on is the predetermined conclusion.
The really silly thing to me is how Birthers avoid explaining why Republican campaign operatives failed to discover this alleged conspiracy that they, and they alone, have detected.
I can't imagine the McCain campaign would have ignored the rumors or failed to investigate the "evidence" Birthers were promulgating.
I mean, what could be juicier than Obama's hiding the fact that he isn't an American citizen?
Sunny says:
The really silly thing to me is how Birthers avoid explaining why Republican campaign operatives failed to discover this alleged conspiracy that they, and they alone, have detected.
__
I think one can get a glimpse into the thought process by examining the behavior of World Net Daily.
When the Berg case first came out, WND thoroughly debunked it (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=73214), saying:
A separate WND investigation into Obama's birth certificate utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic.
However, that was back in the days when Berg was regarded as pro-Hillary, making him fair game.
More recently, WND has published another article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=84065), complaining petulantly that the first article had been described incorrectly -- now that the Berg position is thought of as anti-Obama, it is looked upon with far greater favor.
Both articles are still online, read and judge for yourselves.
Maine, I've read about that. WND is nothing if not opportunistic. They know who their best audience is.
I'm fascinated by this because I have a relative who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia. She's deeply suspicious of people and sees conspiracies everywhere. It's agony for her -- and for all of us who love her.
So I can't understand why so many people voluntarily nurse a desire to be flat-out paranoid about Barack Obama. You can disagree with him politically, but why the intricately embroidered conspiracy theories?
Maybe some Birthers are mentally ill, but certainly not most. Obviously some hate the guy so much they want to believe everything anyone charges him with.
Or these folks needed a hobby, and this is it.
"It's so similar to the SNL sketch aired a few nights ago it's spooky."
That's your frame of reference for America being turned into a third world country?
SNL? Sure they're cute and clever but so is my two year old. It doesn't mean she's read the constitution of the US or studied any economic systems lately.
Chalk up another TV casualty. If it isn't force fed mainstream media dog food then apparently it isn't on the table.
DEMAND LIBERTY. Exercise that. Get the birth certificate because it's a requirement. These Mt Olympus prima donnas are our employees, WE ARE NOT SUBJECTS.
"DEMAND LIBERTY. Exercise that. Get the birth certificate because it's a requirement. These Mt Olympus prima donnas are our employees, WE ARE NOT SUBJECTS."
Oh, please, bn.
Just to be on the safe side, maybe you should file a lawsuit demanding the "vault copies" and school records* of every U.S. congressman and senator, every cabinet member, every federal judge, and every elected official in your state, especially your governor.
Because who knows? Maybe some of them are trying to dupe you.
*the Birthers also demand all of Obama's school records from grade school through university
Why should the people HAVE to ask ANY Presidential candidate for the proper documents to prove that they meet the minimum requirements to run for the office?
The candidate has an ethical responsibly to prove the they meet the requirements. The people should not HAVE to prove anything.
Did George W. Bush post his birth certificate? Did Dick Cheney?
Do you think they would have done so if you'd made the request?
For all we know, Cheney might actually be a Sith Lord.
Hey, here's an idea -- you should spearhead a movement to have the Constitution amended to require candidates for every public office, elected or not, in the United States to provide their birth certificates and all their school transcripts from preschool certificates through advanced degrees.
libsareidiots says:
The people should not HAVE to prove anything.
__
The people don't have to prove anything.
The electoral college, both houses of congress, and all the judges who have looked at the issue believe that Obama has proved that he meets the requirements. That's why the electoral college vote proceeded without a hitch and all the court cases so far have been dismissed.
He is not required to prove his eligibility to the satisfaction of any person who raises any question, however frivolous.
But don't worry. We have courts for situations like this. Any individuals who wish him to produce documentation beyond what is required have to convince a judge that the need exists, and then more evidence will be demanded.
Allow me to add something:
...have the Constitution amended to require candidates for every public office, elected or not, in the United States to provide their birth certificates and all their school transcripts from preschool certificates through advanced degrees -- to any Tom, Dick, or Harriet who requests this information.
Where is the evidence that anybody is spending millions keeping the actual Birth Certificate hidden?
The guidline for sifting through real or contrived conspiracy is always the same.
Follow the money.
Also, a simple point of order:
the burden of proof falls on elligibility for elected officials, and on law enforcement for criminal conviction.
Unfortunately, there is little or no guidance regarding the appropriate procedure when an oversight like this is discovered.
The founding fathers would likely have counted on the personal integrity of the candidates.
Re: "Why should the people HAVE to ask ANY Presidential candidate for the proper documents to prove that they meet the minimum requirements to run for the office?"
This is an excellent question. First, Obama has proved that he is a US citizen by posting his Hawaii Certification of Live Birth, which is the only official birth document that Hawaii issues anymore. (Sure, there are original birth certificates, but unless someone has kept it from the time of birth, the only document she or he can get is what Hawaii sends out, which is the Certification of Live Birth.
But that still does not answer the question Why should the people HAVE to ask ANY Presidential candidate for the proper documents to prove that they meet the minimum requirements to run for the office?
A second point is that Obama is no longer a candidate. He is the president. You should ask a different question, why should the people have to ask their president for the proper documents to prove that she or he is a citizen?
One answer is that we have never asked before. I can imagine the reaction in the White House if someone had demanded that either of the two Bushes prove that he was born in the USA, or Kennedy, or LBJ. Their reaction, I can imagine, would be "I'm working. Nobody but a NUT believes that I was born somewhere else than in the USA. Why should I spend my time making nuts happy?"
However, there is an even more interesting question to ask before you ask "Why should the people HAVE to ask ANY Presidential candidate for the proper documents to prove that they meet the minimum requirements to run for the office?"
The question is obvious: Supposing that the candidate had lost the original birth certificate and there was no way to get a copy? Would the fact that the document could not be found make the candidate ineligible?
The question is, is proof required, or if a candidate says: "I can't find the birth certificate, but elect me anyway" and he is elected, isn't that enough?
If you say, no, that there has to be proof, then you are saying that the voters cannot make the decision who to vote for, they can only vote for people who have not lost their birth certificates.
I ask because if McCain had lost his birth certificate (fortunately he had it, kept by his mother all these years), he would have had enormous difficulty in posting it. Why? Because the Panama Canal Authority is out of business. So where would he go to get a copy?
There is an interesting provision in the US citizenship code (Title 8 of the US Code) that relates to foundlings. We don't have very many foundlings these days, but surely they must exist. A foundling is a child left at a police station or at a hospital and no one can find out who the parents are.
According to US Code Title 8 a foundling is presumed to be a US Natural Born citizen, provided that she or he was found in the USA and provided that no one PROVES that she or he was born somewhere other than the USA by their 21st birthday.
So, would a foundling have the right to be elected president even though she or he cannot prove that they were born in the USA?
You could say that after 35 if no one had proved that the child was not born in the USA, the child is certainly LEGALLY considered a natural born citizen. On the other hand, you could say that Article II specifically requires that the president be a natural born citizen and the "legally" imposed by US Code Section 8 is irrelvant.
How do you get around this situation?
There is no way, if every presidential candidate has to have proof that she or he was born in the USA. However, the Constitution does not say anything about proof.
It just says that the person must be a natural born US citizen. So obviously in the case of the foundling, if WE decide that the candidate really is a US citizen even if there is no proof, she is.
Ummmm.... obviously GoldnI hasn't paid attention to these suits, because they did start out in state courts, perhaps that is why GoldnI is still a student, and not out there having passed the bar? The cases I've read about have progressed up from the state, state federal and then up to the supreme court in some instances.
Oh my, we are getting desperate.
Frankly, GoldnI doesn't inspire confidence in me. I pity her future clients, if she does indeed graduate with a law degree and passes her bar exams. She'll no doubt be brushing aside inconvenient ethics and legal standards when they don't conform to her desires. I think that is why the legal profession has such a lousy reputation. Then again, GoldnI could claim to be a law student, and not really be one, as she's hiding behind the anonymity of the web. Apparently you expect the citizenry to be easily silenced dupes, unfortunately, you don't speak for us, Caleb.
Another suit coming up is comprised of numerous members of the military, whose standing can't be dismissed quite so easily, though no citizen can be denied standing our constitution makes that point very clearly.
It would be very easy for Obama to show his legal, long form, notarized birth certificate. It would present no hardship, it only costs at most, $12. He could have easily got one when he went to Hawaii, purportedly to visit his late grandmother. He only spent 45 minutes at her apartment, and several days doing goodness knows what else on the island. Why is he afraid to show the document, he even refuses to submit the faked one he gave to factcheck.org, again, why? The US constitution requires him to prove his status as a natural born citizen, the oath of office he took, to uphold the constitution requires him to actually honor it's requirements, yet he is trying to be above the rule of law.
Caleb seems to be a corrupt little man, who lacks any respect or commitment to the US constitution and the rule of law. What he is proving is that he believes Obama is NOT a citizen, and it makes him all tingly inside. Not much of a man, or human being at all. He's a coward, and not someone I'd look to as a credible journalist.
Anonymous. States do not give away their only copy of birth certificates, and so originals are never "lost". And Hawaii does not only issue certificates of live birth.. are you lying, or is your response a result of drinking the bong water?
The constitution stating that one must be a natural born citizen, is the requirement that one must prove one's birth status. Or do you believe that you could get away with telling a police officer that you don't have to show him your drivers license and registration, that he should just take your word for it?
And unfortunately for you, you and the very anal retentive Caleb do not speak for the American citizenry... so your attempt at using the royal, "we" doesn't quite cut it under law. Have to ask, did your mommy buy your lies when you blamed the broken cookie jar on your friend the ghost? You obviously aren't very bright, dear.
This is why the blogosphere is such a joke, the nutroots are sad, insular little fools.
Re: "Hawaii does not only issue certificates of live birth.. are you lying, or is your response a result of drinking the bong water?"
I said that Hawaii only issues Certifications of Live Birth to people who ask for their birth certificates. To the parents of newly born children, they may issue the original birth certificates: I don't know for sure.
But FOR SURE, all that Hawaii issues to people who ask for copies of their birth certificates is the Certification of Live Birth.
How do I know? I asked the Department of Health of Hawaii, which says it is the only department in Hawaii that issues birth documents and the only document that it sends out to people who ask for their birth certificates is the Certification of Live Birth. You can check, by asking your own questions by e-mail at vr-info@doh.hawaii.gov.
So all the questions about why doesn’t he post the long-form birth certificate have two simple answers:
(1) The Certification of Live Birth is THE official birth certificate, it shows that he was born in Hawaii, and it is legally sufficient to prove it; and
(2) Unless he has kept the original birth certificate and not mislaid it, all that he can post is what Hawaii will send him, which is only the Certification of Live Birth, which is what he has already posted.
Re: "The constitution stating that one must be a natural born citizen, is the requirement that one must prove one's birth status."
Answer: No president so far has proved his birth status and no president so far has been asked to. If the Constitution had any reference to proving birth status, it would have a way to prove it. AND, it wouldn't be putting the document on-line. There would be a mechanism for showing documents to courts which have the capabilities of authenticating the documents.
As you know, no court has asked to see Obama's birth certificate, not even the Certification of Live Birth. But if one did, it is clear from what the officials in Hawaii have said, that there is an original birth certificate in the files that can be shown. (However, it is not necessary. The Certification of Live Birth is the legal birth certificate issued by Hawaii, and it is accepted by the US State Department for issuing passports.)
Re: do you believe that you could get away with telling a police officer that you don't have to show him your drivers license and registration, that he should just take your word for it?
Answer. Since no court has asked to see Obama's birth documents (either COLB or original) the analogy does not hold. However, if the police officer was the voters in the election and asked to see Obama's birth certificate, the analogy would be that Obama had shown his birth certificate to the voters. How so? Because the Certification of Live Birth is the official birth certificate of Hawaii.
This guy puts it better than I can:
A posting from Andrew Walden, publisher of the Hawaii Free Press, a right-wing blog based in Hawaii.
http://www.hawaiifreepress.com/main/ArticlesMain/tabid/56/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/92/Barack-Obama-Born-in-Hawaii.aspx
Barack Obama: Born in Hawai`i
by Andrew Walden
It is time to focus on REAL issues, not imaginary ones.
A fairly impressive internet industry has sprung up claiming that Obama was born in either Kenya or Indonesia. This is nonsense, which distracts from the broadly unexplored story of Obama’s upbringing. This kind of nonsense has emerged because the McCain campaign chose not to raise the many questions about Barack Obama’s numerous hard-left alliances. Barack Obama was born in Hawai`i, August 4, 1961 at Kapiolani Medical Center in Honolulu.
Obama’s birth certificate posted online is exactly the same birth certificate everybody in Hawai`i gets from the State Department of Health. It is not forged. There is nothing unusual about the design or the texture. In addition to the birth certificate, the August 13, 1961 Honolulu Advertiser also carries an announcement of Obama’s birth. The Honolulu Star-Bulletin also carries the same announcement. Both papers require submission of a copy of the birth certificate to print a birth announcement.
End Quote
In short, Hawaii sends out only the Certification of Live Birth. Everyone in Hawaii, as Walden says, gets the Certification of Live Birth. The Certification of Live Birth is accepted by the US State Department. In this case the Certification of Live Birth says that Obama was born in Hawaii. Hawaii cannot issue a certification of live birth that says "born in Hawaii" to someone who was not born in Hawaii (that is the law). This seems to be enough information for now.
