Thursday, January 22, 2009
Politics / Woods 'English Only' Can't Win, Can It?
Posted by Jeff Woods on Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 7:30 AM
Comments (72)
Showing 1-50 of 72
This is democracy in action. You guys wanted it...now you get it. This bill is silly, but many of the arguments opposing it are just as silly.
By the way, the SDLP lost its credibility long ago. They could find racism in a glass of water. Them "alleging" that something is a "hate group" means jack.
This is a nationalistic phenomenon, not a racial one. Ask any Kurd living in West or South Nashville what they think about this and see if they think it's "racist".
Again, I don't support the bill. It is silly and a waste of time/money. But that doesn't mean I am going to automatically run over and join the opposite end of the spectrum.
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The good news is, if English Only wins, it'll get tossed right out of court. It's not even close to being constitutional. Meantime, everyone should ignore it, just the way Crafton ignores the campaign financial disclosure laws.
I think that if you live in Davidson County and use the services of Davidson County, you should learn the language of the country you live in. These liberal people are just trying to make us all out to be racists. Well let me tell you what, if I chose to live in Brazil, I would certainly learn how to speak Portugese. I'm tired of hearing how this country is all a level playing field because Obama was elected. Why does everyone always cry "RACE"--it's not about race it is about what is right. This country spends billions of dollars bowing down to special interest groups, people who use our country's services, but believe our country should accomodate their language and bend over backward to make sure their voice is heard. We ALREADY do this. This bill just makes it official that our county is English speaking, as it should be--we live in AMERICA! Have you ever had to sit in a coutroom for 30 minutes while the court officials look for an interpreter for a non-English speaking person who was an attempted murderer? That is an example of how our country has turned itself inside-out trying to not be called racist, Oh yes, I welcome this criminal with open arms. Never mind that you cannot speak the language--just come here and murder people, you will have your bilingual day in court and probably get off on some technicality.
"I think that if you live in Davidson County and use the services of Davidson County, you should learn the language of the country you live in. "
What makes you think immigrants aren't learning English?
You don't learn it instantly, you know.
You're not thinking this through.
Many immigrants ARE learning English and we ARE providing the services for them to learn English. I harken back to an Tennessean article about a older Kurdish couple whose thousands-of-dollars-a-month health services were being cut back because in a year they had made no progress to head toward citizenship by learning the English language. They said that they were being treated like dogs in this country and that they spit on the flag because we require them to speak the language to get services. We had already paid over a hundred thousand dollars on their health care. This is not an isolated case, either. Yes, they used an interpreter to say we spit on the American flag. I applaud those who come to America for a better life, yes they are probably working diligently to learn English. But why should my tax dollars go toward people who come here to get our services and refuse to speak the language.
Suzy:
The tone of your comment is very angry. Your general animus towards people who have immigrated to our country and have not yet mastered one of the world's most difficult languages comes across much stronger than your common sense argument that people who live in an English-speaking country should learn to speak English. And, by essentially equating all non-English speakers with murders, you pretty much come across as out and out hateful.
What I'm saying is, no matter what the "liberal people" are or are not doing, I assure you that you do not need any help in appearing to be racist. Your doing fine on your own.
And, in my opinion, Jeff's article is right on the money. I will get to my polling station and vote no if I have to crawl.
"1. The mayor, the governor, our congressman (not to mention their wives), every university president, a whole lot of preachers, all the black leaders, all the Hispanic leaders, all the business leaders, the entire media establishment (such as it is) and every other reasonable person in the city has come out against English Only."
Not a single one of whom has ever accomplished anything whatsoever in his or her entire life that proves they are any wiser than the any of the rest of us as to what government policy should be on this issue or any other.
I think that if you live in Davidson County and use the services of Davidson County, you should learn the language of the country you live in.
I believe you mean, "the country in which you live." If we're going to require that everyone speak English, we should also require that they speak it correctly.
Well, Suzy, here's the deal.
Quote anecdotes all you want about Kurds spitting on the flag, but know that you are obscuring the larger reality:
Immigrants here -- including and especially Hispanics -- are learning English eagerly and aggressively. In fact, they are learning it at a much faster pace than has been the norm throughout our history -- a history that has been a continual parade of people coming here who did not speak English. The traditional pattern is that people in the immigrant generation never really make English their primary language. They pick up a little of it, enough to function in society, but their native language (whether Italian, German, Polish, Czech, Greek, Chinese or whatever) remains their primary one. Their children traditionally learned English but also continued to speak the native language; they generally did not achieve fluency in English. By the third generation, the grandchildren of the immigrants, almost all spoke English fluently and as their primary language.
Hispanics here are learning English at a MUCH faster pace.
Had Eric Crafton's law been in place at Ellis Island, immigration officials, barred from speaking the native languages of immigrants in order to obtain information, would have presided over chaos.
I don't think you're a racist, Suzy. I just think you're a dumbass.
People are learning English here for a simple reason: They HAVE to in order to make their way here.
Piss and moan about liberals all you want, but get off your damn high horse.
Suzy,
I agree with your basic premise -- that immigrants should learn English. It is for their own good and ours as well. But that does not remotely make this law justifiable, necessary, or wise. First, English is already the "official" language here, as has been codified by Tennessee law. Moreover, it is not only immigrants or criminals that need to communicate with the government. It is visitors as well. Perhaps you don't get to foreign countries much, but how would you like it if when you went to Rio (to use your example) for business or vacation vacation, when going through customs, the documents were written only in Portuguese, and the official you were dealing with was forbidden from speaking to you in any language other than Portuguese, even though that person knows English. When you were arrested for failing to comply with the customs laws, the court officials refuse to describe the proceedings to you in English. When you are in jail and you complain that you did not do anything wrong, I suppose by your logic the people of Brazil can say "why should we spend money to communicate with criminals like you in a foreign language? If you are going to violate laws here, you should learn Portuguese first!"
Re the racism question: Apparently, this type of law was not necessary when the immigrants coming here were Irish and German and Italian. It is no more necessary now, just because the immigrants coming now often have brown skin.
Suzy, my experience seems to be quite different from yours. I have friends that teach English as a second language both to adults and children. My understanding is there is more demand for the classes for adults than can be met and that the students eagerly attend and work very hard to become proficient. The Metro teachers who teach new immigrants children report that they are extremely respectful, quiet and eager to learn and the parents are very thankful and involved with the schools. English is a very difficult and complex language, not like the Romance languages of Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian. Plus American English has incorporated so many idioms from other languages that many Americans don't understand each other. I find Crafton and his supporters mean spirited and small minded which is not the Nashville I know and love.
Why should we help someone? Remember that Jesus fella? Remember what He said about taking in strangers and that meaning you took Him in too?
Why should we vote AGAINST English Only? Because it will lose Nashville money - pure and simple. It will cost Nashville millions upon millions of dollars in Federal money that will no longer come our way.
Supporters of English Only are asking Nashville to lose millions in order to save what Eric Crafton describes as between 100 to 150 thousand dollars a year.
Are you mad enough at the idiots who spit on the flag to condemn every other immigrant who does not yet know how to speak English?
If you have ever taken a foreign language you must know how much time it takes to become minimally proficient in that language. Are you expecting immigrants to be better at language than you?
So, to answer your question, we should pay to translate because that costs less than not translating.
Simplistic answers to tough issues rarely do any good and this one has to potential to wreak great harm to us all.
Actually, history documents that this same type of thinking was prevalent back early 1900's when there were the waves of European immigrants. I even have a book about how to integrate new immigrants into the American way of life and a whole chapter devoted to why legal recourse will not speed the process. Those who refuse to read history and learn from it are doomed to repeat it.
Oooh, Scott Smith you certainly taught me a thing or two. Maybe if they had spent the money teaching proper grammar in our public schools instead of teaching people how to speak basic English, there wouldn't be so many people who could not speak proper English.
"But why should my tax dollars go toward people who come here to get our services and refuse to speak the language."
Well, why would my tax dollars go to pay for your emergency room care if you were hit by a bus, but hadn't paid for your health insurance? Why do my tax dollars go to pay for your kids' school even if I don't have children?
Because we live in a compassionate, welcoming country. A "Christian" country if you will. We take care of the least of us.
And if you think your tax burden is bad now, just watch what happens if this passes and businesses start leaving Nashville, and the city loses out on those tax dollars and the tax dollars from conventions, and when people like me (who pay our share of taxes now, and then some) leave Nashville for a less intolerant location. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.
If you are really concerned about tax dollars, that is. Doesn't seem to me that that is the real motivation . . .
Woods makes the point that passage of English Only will make Nashville look stupid. Sadly, this is nothing new for poor little Nashville, or Tennessee in general. Let's harken back to the glory days of Bill Boner and his seven hour erection, and telling the ambassador of Turkey he'd always wanted to visit Turkey to see the original of the Parthenon. Or how about the road kill bill. That little bill set off a frenzy of national knee-slapping at how genetically challenged Tennesseans were scraping up smushed possum for the pot to the tune of Dueling Banjos. Nashville consistently votes against public education. Tennessee consistently votes against tax reform in favor of astronomical sales taxes. Let's face it. I hate to say it, but perhaps the majority of us here ARE stupid. It's one reason the founding fathers were leery of pure Democracy.
I believe our children are not the least of us. Everyone pays tax dollars to schools because these children will someday become our leaders and our workforce, it's pretty narrow-minded to resent your tax dollars to go to educate the citizens who are our future.
The emphasis is on the word citizen, I applaud people coming to this country and hungrily wanting to learn the English language to become citizens, but why should I bend over backward to instill the fact that "no, you don't have to learn the language, just suck the life out of us while you resent the country in which you live" (is that proper grammar?).
What businesses are going to leave? It seems like we already sent a lot of our businesses overseas and it had more to do with unionized labor, than who speaks English. The dollar will win the English only fight every time. You are deluded to believe that businesses choose Tennessee to live because we bend over backward to speak every language. They choose Tennessee because of climate, friendly people (English speaking or not) and most of all tax-breaks. Get over yourself.
I agree with Kevin. Waste of time and money, but I do not see how this is nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Life will continue to operate the same as always, but officially, English with be our language. The world recognizes English as the primary business language, what is wrong with taking pride in that?
I speak Southern English because I had the good fortune to be born and educated here. I accept that and love the South but I don't see what "pride" has to do with it. If I also spoke two or three other languages, as many do in other countries, then I would be proud of my language skills. We,as Americans, have the good fortune that when we travel abroad most people speak some English and we don't have to ponder what they are saying. Of course, as more and more travel to the Far East, they discover what it is like not to have the convenience of others speaking English, having signs in English and directions in English.
Why is out government more concerned about teaching these kids to speak English than American Citizens to speak the English language properly? If my child were younger, he would be forced to go to his zoned school which will become Spanish-English only next year, or go to another school some distance away. Bussing again, it seems we just keep going backward.
I'm sure all the non-English speaking kids are respectful and eager to learn--who wouldn't be--given the freedom they are now afforded? Ask the American kids how much they enjoy the Kurdish kids who are allowed to leave class several times a day to pray, when they are not even allowed to pray in school. This is backward.
Not to mention that there is a real question to the constitutionality of the whole amendment.
But I also want to respond to those who say Latinos are not trying to learning English. It's complete hogwash. As Boyd Biggs mentioned, Latinos are learning it a generation earlier than Italians and German immigrants or past generations. I've seen children of first generation Latinos speaking English without an accent while their parents struggle with it. And Suzy, yeah, let's take away that interpretor in courts. No need to let the defendee understand the charges against himself or let him defend himself. That's great. Interpretors in courts are the bane of western civilization.
In short, this bill is an absolute embarrasment and if it passes will be a black mark on this city's reputation, whether businesses leave or not. The fact that it will probably get overturned by the courts won't change that fact.
Hmm, yes lets let an attempted murdered (yes, he was found guilty) get every convenience possible. The passage of this law will not stop interpreters from being in court, but maybe it will stop the need to have 20 different interpreters on standby.
The second amendment is actually of more concern than the first. California is completely bankrupt, polarized and tied in knots because of so many citizen initiated referendums. And government by referendum would not have worked back in the 60s. People of color would still not have their civil rights if the majority vote had ruled.
Hmm, yes lets let an attempted murderer (yes, he was found guilty) get every convenience possible. The passage of this law will not stop interpreters from being in court, but maybe it will stop the need to have 20 different interpreters on standby.
Again, why is having interpretors on standby even an issue? Who cares, seriously. And newsflash, just because you are arrested doesn't by itself make you guilty. I am seriously having a hard time understanding all the resentment towards people just because they don't speak English. People, society is changing, the demographics are changing, and all of these small minded little initiatives are not going to change that. I'm a white guy. But I understand that America in 2009 is different than America in 1959. And Eric Crafton, or Phil Valentine, or any other of the nativists, aren't the representatives of this country anymore. Get on the bus and go forward or be forever in a state of resentment and victimization.
I welcome legal immigrants with open arms just as my forefathers were welcomed over 200 years ago. Learn English so we can communicate. Then, we can discover the many ways we are the same and we can enjoy the differences in culture and heritage. If we can't communicate, there will be fear and suspicion from both sides. If we love people, we will want our newest citizens to know our language. Common sense dictates it. History teaches it. Your vote will make it happen. The people who want to separate us by preventing our ability to communicate have an agenda to divide and conquer. They are not foolish. They know why they're doing it. Prevent them and vote in favor of English only.
Jeff, you love to make fun of liberals until you happen to need them. A month ago you were calling opponents of English Only a "disorganized gang of dreamers and do-gooders." Now, when it appears the vote may actually be close, you drop your faux redneck persona and transform into Gail Kerr.
Join me at Brandon's tonight for some quiche and white wine. (And while you're at it,perhaps you can persuade the downtown markets to serve Scope by the glass;it's hardly fair to make make customers buy the whole bottle.)
CVal,
They are learning English. I know many in the Latino community. Voting against English only isn't preventing them from doing so. There have been many waves of immigration in U.S. history where the first generation of immigrants move into ghettos where they live with each other while successive generations who are born here integrate in and learn the language.
Secondly, English is already the official language of Tennessee and this will be a waste of tax payer money for something that will probably get overturned by the courts.
I think you're right, Anonymous, that most of our major business development to date has come from the lack of an income tax, a sales tax that favors the wealthy, and lots and lots of corporate welfare. The problem is that that strategy isn't buying us much success. We still rank in the bottom five among states in all sorts of quality of like issues like education and health, and we can't pay out welfare forever. I would argue that this strategy is in its last days.
It's one thing to recruit auto executives, whose idea of a good life is low taxes, a decent country club, and a gated subdivision. It's entirely another to recruit the intellectual property businesses of the future. They're almost exclusively located in the West and North because they're incubated by good school systems and universities. And they're almost entirely run and operated by left-leaning people, located in progressive cities where these workers enjoy playing.
We already can't compete culturally with Seattle, Portland, or Boston. Aside from Vandy, our school systems and universities can't produce the same level of educated worker. Throw in English-Only, and it's akin to putting up a giant billboard that says, "Yes, We're Rednecks. Thanks for Asking." We're just feeing into the the existing reputation of Tennessee, placing exclamation point on all our other liabilities that no amount of corporate welfare or primitive tax system can supersede. If you want to shoot yourself in the foot, this is a really good way to do it.
I have no resentment for people who do not speak English, I have resentment to ward people who come to the United States, get on all our government-funded handout programs and refuse to learn the language. Yes I guess the American dream is a reality for them because it is a free ride. Interpreters on standby is an issue because there is no way to measure how much that delay cost the county, state and other "innocents" who had to pay their lawyers an extra half hour fee to find an interpreter, as it is now, my tax dollars get to house, feed and entertain this criminal who will be incarcerated in our US jails.
"...perhaps you can persuade the downtown markets to serve Scope by the glass..."
The Gerst Haus used to have mouthwash available by the squirt. It ain't impossible.
Do you have anecdotal evidence of all these people refusing to learn the language? Because I certainly don't see it. Certainly not anymore than the waves of immigrants who have come before.
But again this bill is nothing but an expensive but empty (and embarrasing to Nashville) symbolic bill. Nothing more. Official business is already done in English and we are likely to lose federal dollars over it until it gets overthrown by the courts. There's a reason the entire intellectual, governmental, and business community is opposed to this.
The elitist Northeast already believes we are Rednecks, as they believe everyone who is NOT from the Northeast is a second-class citizen. They believe people from the West are all pot-smoking hippies. Who cares what they think?
If we vote against English only, it will not change their view of us, only if we physically move our state northward will they think we are educated equals. The argument that the world will think we are all a bunch of Rednecks is a weak one.
"There's a reason the entire intellectual, governmental, and business community is opposed to this."
It's because they are all liberals who like to spend money everybody they claim to be downtrodden.
Yeah, they should send all our criminals to Guantanamo Bay, oh wait our wonderful leader did away with that,
Suzy,
We're not going to agree on much so I'll stop wasting everyone's time with this and this will be my last point. I don't want the rest of the world thinking we're rednecks and it's absolutely not a weak argument. Atlanta rose to be the city it was, both in job creation and cultural rejuvenation because it convinced the rest of the country that it wasn't the old south. And it worked. Not that I'm arguing that Nashville should be like Atlanta, but there is something to be said for progress. If you can't stand that, move to Lebanon, or Franklin, or somewhere else with more "conservative values."
And I would hardly classify the Nashville business community as a bunch of liberals. And it's your side that will be voting for all of the money being spent in that this will cost hundreds of thousands to implement, not to mention the legal costs.
You hold ATLANTA up as a metropolitan city? I wouldn't walk alone down there in daylight. They're not to be held up as a shining example of the South rising, where are you from? The old southern ideals are alive and well there, just ask any Atlanta Junior Leaguer.
So Suzy, your responses make it appear that you are reactionary or nativist or both and supporting this is on the laundry list of things to do. I'm a lifelong Southerner, speak American English fluently and often write well but what's with labeling everyone a liberal in that last post? That sentence doesn't make sense.
You're right about the elitist thing, Suzy, but our greatest business success over the past decade or so comes almost exclusively from bribing foreigners to build plants here. Bribery, as a general rule, isn't a strategy with a long shelf life.
And since we don't invest enough in education to incubate our own tech businesses -- damn that pesky tax structure again! -- we're going to have to please the people who do if we want a piece of this in the future. That means whether we like it or not, it's in our self-interest to care what the outside world thinks. And seeing how we inaugurated a black president this week, I'm guessing the outside world is changing just a bit.
Suzy:
" Ask the American kids how much they enjoy the Kurdish kids who are allowed to leave class several times a day to pray, when they are not even allowed to pray in school. This is backward."
Those Kurdish kids-- understand this-- ARE "American kids."
If you can't grasp that you don't get to define who is a citizen, then you have no idea what it is to be "American."
From the tone of your other posts, it is clear that you don't really care about what the actual effect of this would be, that it is a non-solution that creates real problems.
Please admit that the only reason you care about this issue is that it is an attempt to gain political advantage at the expense of Americans who deserve to be here.
If you can't be honest, then go away.
Wasting time? I'm just getting warmed up. I at least convinced 2 people that I work with to READ the English only amendment, they were just going to blindly vote against it lest they be called a redneck or go against what the press says. I don't care which way they vote, just vote and stop listening to the only press coverage given, which is only one viewpoint. i believe we are given the freedom to vote and education to read, not just hear what the press says and follow their opinion blindly like sheep.
Umm, no those Kurdish kids were not American, they did not have America citizenship, nor did their parents. Just because you live somewhere illegally does not give you the right to foist your ideals onto the society you are sucking the life out of.
The majority of people voting against it and educating their neighbors and friends are just like you - voting, caring citizens of Davidson County and Tennessee. So is a lot of the media, they are citizens,neighbors and friends.It's better to have people thoroughly educated on what they are voting on than blindly following sound bites. If nothing else, people have learned that Eric Crafton is not a true leader who will debate openly on the issues he raises, tell the whole truth and says what is expedient.
Suzy, why do so many Kurdish Nashvillians vote (and might I add, they have in the past voted Republican)?
It's because they are citizens. Most Kurds who live in Nashville and are under seventeen were BORN in the US. The path to citizenship for political refugees is very easy. They're Americans because-- guess what-- they came to a country where there was more freedom than countries where they were politically oppressed, sometimes killed, and-- get this-- had their language banned by Saddam (and Kurdish is still not allowed in Syria or Turkey).
YOU may not think they're Americans, but they're as American as you. Maybe more, because they actually know something about freedom.
Many Kurdish families are naturalized citizens and,if their children were born here after they immigrated, they are definitely American citizens. Many of the immigrant populations that have settled in Nashville have been here at least one whole generation and most come from conflicts we initiated in other parts of the world. We can look forward to many more Iraqis soon.
Maybe Suzy's hope is that Crafton can rescind citizenship as well. Constitution of the United States? Who needs it when you have a Metro Charter referendum!
Anonymous said:
"I believe our children are not the least of us. Everyone pays tax dollars to schools because these children will someday become our leaders and our workforce, it's pretty narrow-minded to resent your tax dollars to go to educate the citizens who are our future."
Anonymous, you seem to be responding to my post, and I cannot tell if you are being intentionally obtuse or not. "The least of us" was meant to refer to the Judeo-Christian idea of charity, and of taking care of those who are least able to take care of themselves, and children certainly fall in that category. Neither children nor foreigners are categorically "the least of us" in any other respect.
I obviously do not resent my tax dollars going to education, as I would guess you understand, despite your rhetoric. Quite the contrary.
And as for the justification for educating children, I totally agree, but I think that you are wrong to stop at children: though this law harms far more people than the apparent targets (i.e., immigrants), those immigrants will also "someday become our leaders and our workforce," unless the nativists and xenophobes have their way, begining with ballot measures such as this.
And, no thank you, I'll decline to "get over myself" when confronted with this hateful backassward nonsense in my city.
