Friday, March 9, 2007
Child-free in Tennessee
Posted by Lindsay Ferrier on Fri, Mar 9, 2007 at 9:58 AM
Child-free social groups have been around for years to help adults without kids to connect. I can sympathize with the need to be around others whose lives don't revolve around Little League and PTA meetings (I'd generally like to be around people like that myself), but geez Louise, local child-free groups. Bitter much?
At the top of the Nashville No Kidding! website, you'll find this quote from the TV show Northern Exposure:
"They're slobbery and they're whiney and they look at you just like they could see right into your soul and they're unpredictable and they smell and they're noisy and the world revolves around them and why!? I don't get it. They're not interesting. They can't tell jokes, they don't have opinions, and they're boring, you know? They're just boring and annoying and I don't want to have one." And over at the local Childfree Meetup site, Nashvillians sound off about being bratless.
"I find that people without kids are the only people worth my time," writes a guy calling himself Omnibus.
"I can't stand kids, they give me hives," a woman who goes by Wingnut admits.
In the San Francisco Chronicle's article on the child-free, grievances also are aired about work-family benefits, lactation rooms for working mothers, friends who disappear after having children and constant criticism/disbelief from acquaintances and strangers over the decision to remain childless.
Apparently, living a child-free life isn't all about partying and sleeping in on weekends. But I'm here to tell you that parents don't have it any easier. For instance:
-I can't take my well-behaved, non-screaming toddler into a nicer restaurant to eat without getting dirty looks from the host and waitstaff, who just assume that she's going to throw a messy tantrum and I'm going to do nothing about it.
-On that note, Jackson's makes the world's best deep fried cookie dough eggrolls, but doesn't have highchairs or booster seats.
-While the rest of my family bought up cool vintage t-shirts, I had to wait outside a store on Melrose Avenue last summer with my toddler because the sign in the window said, "No solicitors. No panhandlers. No strollers."
-Having kids means either staying home with them and being treated like a loser by your working counterparts, or working and feeling guilty about putting the kids in daycare.
-While there are plenty of child-free organizations, there's no group for those of us who have kids, but don't really want to talk shop with every other parent with whom they have a conversation. Might I suggest one called P-WHOP (Parents Who Hate Other Parents)?
-We're forced to endure our child-free friends accusing us of falling off the face of the earth after we had kids, when really we just couldn't find a freaking babysitter.
Basically, it all sucks, whether you have a kid or not. Feel better?
Comments (111)
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"Having kids means either staying home with them and being treated like a loser by your working counterparts, or working and feeling guilty about putting the kids in daycare."
Well, QUIT FEELING GUILTY THEN, and ask yourself WHY you feel guilty. Does your husband feel guilty? Does anyone ever ask about a father's ability to do his job, or a male worker's ability to parent? No. Make the men in your life step up and quit shouldering the whole responsibility yourself. Just becuase the kid came out of your belly doesn't mean you made it by yourself!
THAT is the main reason for ME, to be "child-free." Because women become second-class citizens once they have kids, and it makes me sick. I like children, but I like myself, too, and I am not just an oven. GAH.
(rant over. Sorry.)
(Not that I'm implying that YOU are an oven. I'm just saying you shouldn't feel guilty for wanting to have a life outside your kids. That's a societal problem, not one that should just go hand-in-hand with having a family.)
I would join P-WOP in a heartbeat. As a parent, I am tired of not being asked to join Happy Hour cause apparently, once you give birth, all your coolness disappears and people assume all you are is a parent. But guess what!? I can go a whole 10 minutes without mentioning my fabulous daughter. No matter what road in life you choose, its hard. Deal.
I've got lots of single/childless friends. I guess their lives are too rich and full to bitch about other people's kids.
As for non-child friendly businesses. F*ck 'em.
My kid goes just about any place I go. If you don't want to provide a high chair, well, I guess you'll end up cleaning food from under the table.
To which I say, "Tough shit."
I LOVE when people say they hate kids...as if they were just dropped on the Earth a grown person. Hate yourself all you want - my kids did nothing to you. I'm sure a lot of those jackasses smell worse than my kids anyway!
I am childfree at the moment, but not for lack of trying. But I'm not completely sold on parenthood either. I love kids, just don't know if I could handle it 24/7. I like a full night's sleep. But, I do feel left out when everyone else seems to be having kids. I try and be friends with moms, but they always seem to be longing to hang out with other moms. They want someone who understands them, and who has kids theirs can play with. They join mom's groups, so that kind of rules me out for participation. So, as a childfree person you end up feeling kind of like an outcast. Not to mention that if you want to see some disappointed faces, just tell your parents/grandparents you don't want kids. Not fun.
I used to be a child, therefore I must like them? By that reasoning, Japanese porn fans are the truest of all.
Not enjoying the behavior of loud children is not 'hating oneself'. What odd reasoning.
Uh...did you read the post? That was in response to the Northern Exposure quote.
Guess what folks, not everyone wants a kid and even more people don't want to put up with your kid. Now I know your kid is smart, funny, well behaved, interesting, cheap to own, etc, etc, but guess what, they really aren't.
Bottom line is, I didn't have to create someone that would love me, I already have someone to do that, and no they aren't my parents.
I know several people who admit they had kids cause they were bored and lacked direction in life. Marriage just wasn't going anywhere, or better yet, their wife made them because "she has wanted children her WHOLE LIFE." These are not losers folks, they are doctors, lawyers, teachers, christians, whatever. Normal people who tell me to hold out as long as possible. You want to think these people are different from you but they aren't deep down. And don't worry, I'm sure your husband isn't one of these men who had a child because he felt pressured to, I'm sure he really wanted it as much as you and for the same reasons. Not to worry.
Hey guess what SHORT AND FAT, your "CHILDLESS" friends probably do hate your kids, they just don't have the heart to tell you. But not to worry, at least you accomplished something in life, you had a kid, and as we all know, that is tough to do. Notice I said have a kid, not raise one, so none of your raising kids is differet than having them spew. You don't have to have one to know that.
[As for non-child friendly businesses. F*ck 'em.
My kid goes just about any place I go. If you don't want to provide a high chair, well, I guess you'll end up cleaning food from under the table.
To which I say, "Tough shit."]
Hey SHORT AND FAT, of course your kids go everywhere you go, you have no life except for your kids and I don't even need to know you to know that.
What do you do for a living by the way? Don't say parent, CAUSE BEING A PARENT ISN'T A JOB. You get paid for a job, and hugs and love don't pay bills. If it were a job, then I could quit my real job and just do my job of being a dog owner. Cause having an animal is a job right? How about a bird, that would be a great job.
Hey, did you catch the story about the airline that kicked a family off because their kid could not behave. That warmed my cold heart. It shows a growing trend in lack of tolerance for other peoples animals which has been a long time coming.
And don't worry, I'm sure that the waiter who is cleaning up after your dirty little animals didn't spit in your food for treating him like a servant. I'm sure he didn't though, because you come off as being really nice deep down. I think the "F*ck' em" line really sold me on you being you. Your kids are going to turn out WELL with that kind of attitude. Very, very, well.
Your right, the world owes you something for popping out another animal just like you. That's right, did you forget we are animals S.A.F.? Maybe having kids is still an instinct, probably not for you though. One that you couldn't control maybe? And yes I called your kid an animal, so unbuckle those Lane Bryants and call me every dirty name you can think of, which I assume would make up a small list.
And since the world owes you something, Harris Teeter has given you a special parking spot cause you have a kid. Right up front. Although your husband probably always parks in the back of the lot with the rest of us losers right? You do still have a husband right? Sorry, I shouldn't have assumed that. You don't have to be married to have sex, I forgot about that. Man am I a sinner or what?
Hey, when your 12 kids move away S.A.F., can I move in their room, you sound like lots of fun to live with.
FYI, you may want to teach your kids to eat their food instead of throwing it on the floor. Food costs to much to be wasted.
Do I seem bitter, it could be because your kids sat next to me in a restaurant the other night and screamed while I tried to eat my meal, ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC.....
You bring up a good point. Some people are just too bitter, callus and selfish to procreate. You are truly serving the world with your ultimate purpose...ending your DNA.
Wow.......there seems to be a whole lot of bitterness on both sides of the fence. I have a kid, and while I love to talk about her, I try to respect the fact that other people (co-workers, for example) might not like to hear about her 24/7. And no, I don't take her everywhere - some restaurants were not DESIGNED for children - that's why they made places like Eat N Park (and you get a free cookie - it doesn't get much better than that). And for you childless by choice folks - I absolutely respect your choices too, but geez, try not to be so, well, hateful is the word that comes to mind. Ask for another table if someone annoying child is sitting next to you. Sheesh.
Whoa, Bitterman. Butrfly did bring up a good point- You were a kid yourself once. I think that alone calls for an ounce of tolerance on your part when you're dealing with other people's kids, most of whom, be honest now, are fairly well behaved.
I had never thought much about people with children vs. people without until I read the SF Chronicle article. Have kids or don't. Who the fuck cares?
I do like the Harris Teeter parking spot, though. That makes up for one or two of the nights I was up every hour cleaning up vomit and changing crib sheets...
To be clear, my parents are amazing people. I have had a life filled with choices and love. I would hope that I could be the man and father that my father is. Bitter because of the actions of others, of course we all are about something. The kid thing is mine because I consider having a child anywhere in this world to be an honor and a responsibility. A responsibility so important that I think most people do not deserve it. You expect that your way of life is worth furthering, I realize that I am not ready for that ultimate responsibility. I am however probably far more well adjusted than most of you. I love someone, own my own company, have tons of close friends, a new home, almost no debt, and a family that has never shown me anything but understanding. These things are all true friends, I am lucky to be sure. I am not so f*cking arrogant that I think I should have a child just because I want one. The children only suck because their parents take them into public too early, or they are not loved, or they simply didn't have a chance considering the DNA at hand, Etc, Etc, Etc. I guess you must meet lots of great strangers and citizens at large, because I don't. But I do meet a lot of idiots with kids because they were following the good ole 2.5 kids plan. Scared of being alone, get married and have kids....don't feel like you have something to do, have a kid you shouldn't and turn him into a jerk to. It is easier to call me bitter, harder to admit most people shouldn't have kids because they don't deserve it. And being on the other end of this debate sucks because of the hatred put forth toward people who choose to not do something for the betterment of society and a child that may end up better off to have been born later or maybe never. I'm not religous either idiots, so let's here it for the none baby jesus, none children having, none egotistical, adult that decided the world was full enough. Hey breeders, how about adoption, but why do that when you can crank out your own. Lucky this world isn't filled with orphans or you might feel like a jerk for insisting on keeping your busted DNA in the pool.
Hey parents...don't let this jerk turn you against all childfree folks. There are lots of us who adore children, other people's children included, but just can't/don't have them ourselves. I enjoy having them in restaurants if they're well-behaved. Especially since I'm not around them 24/7, I cherish the time I do get to be around other people's kids. We're not all haters by any means, and a lot of us (including me) read mom blogs and listen to our mom friends and love to hear about their children.
Wow, "People Do Hate Your Kids" -- you sure do have a lot of hatred built up in that narrow little brain of yours.
Here's a suggestion for you; instead of ranting and raving for three long, rude and completely uncalled-for comments in response to S.A.F's off-hand comment, why don't you put that "passion" into something worthwhile? You obviously don't respect your parents (there's no way you could post like that and have any respect for ANY parents) and you obviously feel the need to make money and be patted on the back constantly to feel good about yourself....so instead of posting nasty comments here, why don't you take some of that "hard-earned" cash -- you know, the money that is WAY better than kisses and hugs -- and spend it on some counseling or self-help books? Chill out. You've got some self-esteem problems, which is pretty typical for bullies.
In any case, leave your nasty opinions to yourself. You don't have the right to attack someone in that way - and especially just because you don't want children.
The children only suck because their parents take them into public too early...
I love that. What exactly are we supposed to do with them? Leave them at home in a cage with some food and water and a blankie?
I am however probably far more well adjusted than most of you. ...I am not so f*cking arrogant...
Uhm, no you're not and yes, you are.
Wow! Such anger and attacking from all sides, and for what?
CF adults deserve to be respected for the choice that fits for them. If you don't want to raise a child you will likely not do a good job of raising a child.
Many parents deserve respect for doing a very difficult job of raising children. But, of course, must be cognizant of the impact of your child on others when their behavior is socially disruptive (please, please take your crying infant out of the theatre)
Then there are the people in between who have children because of poor planning, social expectations, they always wanted to, or some other reason..and then discover that they are not up to the challenge. (We've all read the stats on a child protective system that is overburdened with child abuse and neglect cases).
The answer? Stop judging one another for a very personal choice. One's choice to not have children does not reflect badly on parents. Likewise, one's choice to have children does not reflect badly on the CF.
As someone stated earlier, not all places are appropriate for children...it is reality. And CF folks, don't usually go to establishements that cater to children expecting that environment to change. A little space and a little tolerance on both sides would do the world a whale of a lot of good.
I think People do hate your kids, while angry, has a very valid point. Some parents -- not all -- think that once they become parents their lifestyle does not have to change. If you are a parent, you're going to have to put off Margots for awhile... but that's ok, there is a Shoneys just down the road.
It only drives me crazy when I'm paying good money at a high-end place that is clearly not meant for tots (and yes, no high chairs, is, indeed, a good sign of that) when there is a screaming child right next to me... but I have no right to complain if it's a spot that caters to children.
That said, if I were at a bar, or some other spot that's completely inappropriate for kids and Short and Fat's brats were running around, I'd make sure smoke from my cigarette was blowing toward those childrens sweet, pink lungs and that every other word out of my mouth was "fuck." Or at least f*ck.
Twelve Things Parents and Wannabe Parents Can Do to Better Get Along with the Childfree:
12) Banish the phrases "You'll change your mind!" "It's different when they're your own!" "I used to think like you, but now I have X number of children!" and "As a parent, I [insert opinion here]" from your vocabulary. Read a Breeder Bingo card and just don't use the bingos, despite the temptation. Ever.
11) Stop assuming that your parental status makes you somehow more authentic, mature, or intelligent than your unchilded peers. That unchilded teacher has a PhD and you have a kid. That means she knows more about education than you do, so get over it.
10) Stop allowing your kids to behave in a disruptive manner in public. The CF couple over there is paying for their dinner the same as you are, and they're just as entitled to a nice night out as you. Everybody else in that theatre paid for a ticket too, and they don't want to listen to your kid's wailing. Teach your kids out-in-public manners, or if they're too young to behave, leave 'em home with a sitter.
9) Stop insisting that "family friendly" work policies ONLY applies to parents with children. I have a disabled brother who I'm helping to support ֠why can't I take family leave to help take care of him? Acknowledge the fact that other people have families who depend on them too, even if their dependents are not their minor children.
8) Your religion may prohibit birth control and say that children are mandatory ֠but in all brutal honesty, that means NOTHING to me. I am not a member of your religion and I do not have to be in any way affected by its rules. This is a free country with no mandated state religion, so you must acknowledge that I can disregard the rules of any religion at will.
7) Stop asking married people "How many kids to you have?" and start asking "Do you have kids?" If the answer is no, acknowledge it and move on. You are not entitled to an explanation as to why that married couple doesn't have kids, so don't expect one.
6) Stop assuming that all CF people have unlimited spare time and money because we don't have children. Also, stop assuming that we all want to use that imaginary unlimited spare time and money babysitting and buying presents for your kids.
5) Stop using your kids as an excuse for your own bad behavior. NEVER cut to the front of the line with the excuse that your kids are waiting for you at home. Being a parent does not mean that you get an automatic pass on good manners or civil behavior. If you've ever played the Parent Card to get your way, stop it now.
4) Knock it off with the knee-jerk hostile reaction to anything that might harm "the children" in some nebulous way. Remember the angry mob that attacked a pediatrician's home because they mistook "pediatrician" for "pedophile." If someone's trying to get you riled up "for the children" check out that instigators' agenda before you start acting like an angry lemming.
3) STOP trying to date professed CF people thinking "I'll change his/her mind," or "I'm so cute, she's GOTTA want my baby eventually," or "I'll just go off the Pill without his knowledge, then he'll want to be a parent!" or "My kids are so cute, s/he'll fall in love with them." Just as no woman is sexy enough to "convert" a gay man, I can't think of any guy who makes me want to get my tubal reversed. If your date says, I don't want kids EVER, believe him/her and move on.
2) Stop flipping out if groups of like-minded CF people put up support boards on the Internet. There are support boards for all kinds of demographics: people with specific diseases, people with specific interests, gay men, lesbians, adoptees, married people, divorced people, people of certain races, of certain religions, of various political groups, and, of course, for people with children. The existence of boards where people who don't have and don't want children can congregate does not hurt ANYONE. We're just talking to each other, not plotting to blow up daycares. Get over it.
1) STOP STOP STOP imagining that you get a vote as far as anyone else's reproductive status! When you urge someone else to have a child, you have no idea what his or her family life was like, what his/her medical history is like, or what that child will do to his or her life. Yes, your kids might be great, but there's absolutely no guarantee that the other person's would be as well. All you accomplish by pestering someone else to have kids (especially when s/he openly professes that s/he doesn't want any) is making a nuisance of yourself. CF people have enough opportunities to feel invalidated and misunderstood in this world without you adding to it.
So there you have it. Follow the above guidelines, and you'll be surprised at how many Parent, Not Breeder RAVES you'll get from your CF friends.
You sweet people. Don't you know these children-stinky or not—grow up to break your heart? Your best and worst DNA and your mate's best and worst DNA blend together, and you have no f**king idea what you will get for all the time and love and money—private schools, summer camps, sports, hours of reading, planning, family dinners, whatever—you pour into them. Good luck with your plans.
Notfaulkner, will you marry me and have 27 kids with me that we can keep in cages. I seriously love you in a deep deep place next to my cold not beating heart.
As for my parents, I respect them more than anyone in the world. I was not kidding about the great childhood part. I was brought up in a home with love and respect because my parents treated me like an adult until I acted like a child and then they would explain to me why my actions were not appropriate. They did not take me into public until I knew how to act at least civilized, not like an adult, but civilized. It is easier to assume I hate kids, not true. I just don't love all kids because they are kids. Just like adults. There are more people out there like me than you think and you know what, society and evolution will eventually turn towards my kind of people. I meet fewer and fewer young people who want to get married or have kids. Just about every girl I grew up with talked about both of those things as early as middle school, "Well when I get married and have kids." Programming and instinct folks, hate it or love it, it is the truth.
And yes Lindsay, you are supposed to keep them at home and child friendly places until they know how to act. That is the sacrifice that comes with having a child. Throw that one in with all the other sacrifices you make for your child because it is just as important as the rest.
As seen elsewhere, thank you for putting forth the most positive response yet. Although I would expect some of the same venom we got for being mean about it. Thank you, seriously.
I am angry and judgmental because of the hatred put forth by people who look down on me for not following the program. And if your lack of parenting did not interfere with my life, then I would not care one bit how you raised your child. Why should ANYONE have to suffer through your child acting out in public because you lack the skills as an adult/parent to control them? Why I ask? I don't bring my 200 pound dog everywhere with me, you know why, because he doesn't belong most places because he can not act accordingly. If your kid acts out in public, IT IS YOUR FAULT AND IT MAKES YOUR ACTIONS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kids are fine, you are the problem.
And to be honest and mean again, I haven't had kids for all the reasons I stated before plus one.
I felt like I had a purpose in life and an identity on my own. I didn't have to become a father to feel like I was someone. To feel the sense of accomplishment. I don't need a child to have a purpose in life.
Hey, anyone want to talk about the war, politics, religion, abortion, etc...
Just put any of these words in place of kid throughout and it pretty much holds true...
Thanks for loving me like you do, and by the way, I took your advice and did something positive with all this hatred I seem to have. I just went out and bought a puppy, a kitten, a flower, a bible, and a kid, discount for buying them as a package.
Hey, why no smartass comments about my adoption question? No good responses for that one child lovers. All the orphans in the world, but none of them good enough for you, you had to have one with your blood in it. Who cares if the world is over populated, have as many kids as you want. Thank god your DNA will continue on, it makes you immortal, right? Most people can't make a commitment that lasts more than a week, but they can't wait to enter into what I consider to be the most important commitment of all, creating a human being that makes this world better, even in the smallest ways possible. Sorry, I shouldn't be heart felt with you, I need to be the childless monster so you can feel better about your opinion, at least I'm the narrow minded one, rest easy. Or at least rest when you can parents, rest when you can.
My children that you hate so much will be paying an unfair portion of your social security and medicaid. Muster up a little gratitude.
Hey Caitlin, these are words and ideas. I am not a bully nor am I high on the low self esteem ladder. You make it sound like I should be guilty for being successful. You assume that I don't reach out to others in need or help my fellow man. You are wrong, but this is a blog full of words, so assuming will create that. I am aggressive with this topic and others because I believe strongly that having a child is an extremely important responsibility. One that most people shouldn't qualify for, and at the moment, I count myself in that group. If I were a crazy bully, then I wouldn't like kids at all or think people should have them. I do like kids, I do think SOME people should have them, I don't like how many parents let their children behave, and I do love my parents deeply. And I do not apologizes for being PC about this topic or any other. You don't like my tone, so what, that makes me a bully because I didn't disagree with you correctly? What I don't understand Caitlin, is why most of the folks on this blog attack my words and approach, but stray away from the topic or defend their position better.
So I ask you Caitlin, does everyone deserve to have a child?
Should everyone not adopt a child in need and instead create something in their own image?
Does that sound vain to you?
I ask you, tell me your opinion about this topic and leave your shallow attacks out of it. If you can do that, so can I.
I welcome a free exchange of ideas, I just don't think we are going to get it. I am a jerk because I do enjoy shaking things up a bit, it excites me. So I am guilty of poking at the heart of people on this blog for amusement, which is not kind, but again, they are only words and ideas. If you leave your computer angry, you may be the one in search of help. I feel great about what I have said and the tone in which I said it. So jerk, surely, bully, never. I attack for fun, why do you attack me, for fun, or to feel better about your decisions? I want to know, I really do. Tell me. Express yourself.
What say you Caitlin? Talk about the issue, not the messengers and I will follow your lead.
No mame they won't, I have planned for my retirement already and I plan on donating my social security check to others in need. So you are wrong, sorry. You also assume that program will exist then. I am 32, and I am not so sure it will be around in 40 years. And if your thinking were valid, then show me some repect, because I am probably paying for yours mame. But that has nothing to do with the topic put forth in this blog, but congrats for reaching out there with something.
Short and Fat will be surprised not only to know he has a husband, but, that he gave birth.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, that is what is wonderful about living in the country we live in. If you don't want children don't have them....it is no ones business but your own.
My husband and I had two children and quit even though I would have loved to have more but I knew that to be financially responsible for those children we should quit. I am proud to say my children have always been well behaved in public. I started when they were young and told them if they misbehaved when we were out we would leave and I really did it...I get sick of people that threaten and don't follow through. Mine learned quick that I meant business. We have also left restaurants when we got inside and realized it wasn't for children. I love my kids (who are now high school and college age) but understand why some people don't want any.
Two simple questions: 1) Why is it that in every state of this union one needs a license to drive a car, yet in no state is a license necessary to spawn or bear a child? 2) Is the first question pertinent to any of the preceding comments?
So why is it not ok for people to want to be childfree? Some of us have different aspirations in life, and its ridiculous when parents act childish (you guys smell, I'm so glad you're not passing off your dna, you were a kid once) I've had people with children even defend my position of not having children. I have no problem with parents, but it's when bitter breeders snap at others, thereby telling their children that rudeness is ok that gets to be a problem.
Wow - a hot topic over at Strollerderbytoo.
To quote an entry there:
"It really bothers me to see [name calling], because when it is used in a debate like this it almost always completely obscures the good point (if any) the writer was making OR seems to have been used as a knee jerk response in place of making a good point and prevents the 'opponent' from considering the argument on its own merits and spurs THEM to a nastry knee jerk response, making a nasty fight out of a decent debate.
I was thinking about that adoption thing, Mr. Money Bags...if we adopt children instead of 'squirting out our own' do we earn the right then to bring them in public, or do they need cages, too?
I don't remember anyone saying that people who don't want kids are bad. I think people who HATE kids and think they should banished and demeaned get too worked up and run their mouths so negatively it's hard to respond with much restraint. I mean, really, insulting KIDS? How low can you really go?
I'll be the first to admit that I see a lot of kids that need to be "controlled". But when you don't notice the 20 other kids who are acting right over the one kid throwing a fit ... through a narrow mind you perceive that to be the way every child is. I can understand not wanting to have kids - but where does all the hatred come from?
And you know, BitterMan...I AM raising kids that I didn't conceive. They are beatiful, well-mannered, compassionate and intelligent "animals". Which is exactly what you have shown you are not. I agree, it's probably better you don't have children of your own.
(PS - maybe whoever it was should get a better job, because my insurance WOULD pay for an employee to take time off to care for ANY family member.)
I dont see what the big deal is, moms have moms groups. Why cant CFBC people have them too? I have one son but it doesn't really bother me that they would like to be around like minded people. I would like to be a part of a social club that didn't revolve around kids. I know the non-mombie rules. I would never take my son into a "fancy" or even "nice" restraunt. If I was to go somewhere like that and there was a kid there I would most likely be angry, because I got myself a babysitter to have a night of child free shenanigans. I dont think it is "parents" necessarily, or the child free. It is just assholes with senses of entitlement.
Butrfly, my anger toward the people we are discussing, it comes from people with kids telling me that I have a problem because I don't want kids. They seem to need everyone to agree with them or we are damaged goods some how. As if our strong desire not to has made their choice wrong. And lighten up about the animal /cage comments, they were to make small minded people mad, not to make you lose focus on the issue. And the money bags thing, that is the best you got. I wish I were as wealthy as you make me sound. I said I was lucky, happy, and doing well, not Rockafeller or Vanderbilt over here. But if you can't control your emotions and debate me, then give up and go play with your kids. But try and keep your control with them.
Now that made you mad didn't it?
By the way, thank you for adopting a child, that is a noble thing. You should be proud of that forever. Adoption not only helps kids who are alone find a place to call home, it helps society as a whole. Well done 4404, I mean that.
Now back to the name callin, AINT THAT RIGHT YOU MINI VAN DRIVING SOCCER MOM PTA GOING BREEDERS.
Did that make you laugh or mad again?
I have an idea! Let's build a society of convenient, polite, morally culpable, worth-the-effort people who pull their own weight, make money, and don't keep anyone around them from enjoying anything they want, whenever they want.
Obviously, kids won't be invited. Neither will the elderly, because God knows they're embarrassing at times and they can't pull their own weight, and we should leave the disabled out of it too, especially anyone who "causes a scene" or makes us feel uncomfortable while we're eating out.
Because that's what life's about, right?
I mean, come ON. A full, healthy society has babies and kids and adults and older people and the elderly, and a full, healthy society causes you to stumble across people who make you uncomfortable, such as a crying baby.
But, where ARE all these children who are throwing fits in restaurants? I personally think they're just a figment of the anti-children movement's imagination, and let me be clear, I am talking about intolerant people who hate those who are smaller and more helpless than them, not people who decide not to have children out of their own convictions.
There are many good reasons not to have children. There are many good reasons to have children. Respect is a bare minimum, though, for other people's way of life, on both sides.
Hey Aghast, you are right we hate every one that is weak and we want nothing less than an unhealthy society. Thanks for listening to us, we appriciate it. Very nice over generalization my friend, very nice. Did Aghast just call me a Nazi, I think she did.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ......
"I have an idea! Let's build a society of convenient, polite, morally culpable, worth-the-effort people who pull their own weight, make money, and don't keep anyone around them from enjoying anything they want, whenever they want."
Hey Aghast, that society sounds great, let me know when you find it, I'll apply for citizenship. Don't worry mame, you can come with me. Imagine that, a society where people who took responsibility for themselves before all else thrived and lived together, sounds like heaven on earth.......I love you mame!
This is just ridiculous. I can't believe how nasty people are getting here. I have four children and I love kids, but I would never question anyone's reason for *not* having children, and I wouldn't think less of them for it. It just wouldn't occur to me to do that. Actually, I don't know many people with kids who would think that way--or at least I've never heard them discuss it. I would never assume someone is selfish because they choose not to have children. Why would anyone assume all people who do have children are inconsiderate and raising a bunch of brats? Almost every time we take our kids somewhere we are complimented for their behavior. I see a lot of other well-behaved children along with those who aren't well-behaved. As someone said, it is not so much the child's fault as the parent's failure to teach them--at least to a certain age. And I don't have a cute little nickname for people who choose not to have children, so I really resent the term "breeder". I agree with whoever said that there needs to be respect on both sides.
Good freaking Lord. Some of the people on here are in dire need of therapy. Way too much bitterness going on. And name calling? Wasn't that one of the childish behaviors you are complaining about? What is next stomping your feet and holding your breath? There is no reason in the world to hate a child. If you get peeved because a roudy, yet adorable, child is sitting next to you in resturant than move you a*s to another section. Would you like for us to start segregating like we did back before Rosa Parks? Well guess what people I am not giving up my child's seat in a resturant just because you do not feel they should be there.
Just like not all parents constantly ask CF people when/where/why/how they will be having children, not all CF people hate children. It would, therefore, be nice to get some useful information out of this blog topic. I feel as though As Seen Elsewhere's list was a great representation of what are unfair assumptions/inappropriate questions to ask of people with no children and I would like to hear from the other side what we can do to hold up our end of the "let's make for some peaceful child(ren)/no child(ren) encounters." Would any of the parents contributing to this firestorm be willing to take the route that "As Seen Elsewhere" did and give us CFs a comprehensive and helpful list of things we should be cognizant of when talking to people with children? Recommendations here, not accusations, would be great.
I find some of these comments to be insulting.
My son is a person and he is part of my family. He is not an object to loathe or judge or hate. He has a personality, likes and dislikes. He is capable of love, (more so now than at any other time in his life). Just as much as an adult, he deserves the same common decency as all human beings.
I have to say, I could care less what someone else chooses to do. I am the mother of two, but wouldn't say I love kids. I love my own, and it's not that I dislike other children... b ut I do dislike a lot of parents. I would join PWHOP in a heartbeat...but none of us may like each other. What I was thinking about most when I read everyones' comments was the description of children they do hate or dislike. It reminds me an awful lot of some adults. And not all are very young. I've had couples who are being loud and obnoxious next to me when I'm trying to enjoy my meal. I've experienced cleaning up tables with the most disgusting items on the floor from men who had to be in their 30's and 40's. I've been extremely angry that I couldn't enjoy a movie because of some loud mouth who feels he or she has to repeat every funny line said....
Can older parents please come and reprimand your idiot adult children?
this is a sad sad place to be.. i agree that not all people should have children. agree agree agree. but so much hate and bitterness and intolerence that already exists in our country for children breaks my heart. have you ever noticed the way foreigners treat children? check it out.. any time i take my kids to get sushi or to a mexican rest. - they are revered and treated with such love and kindness - and from TOTAL strangers! do you want to know why? because in some places (apparently not the self-absorbed place that our country has become) the innocence and beauty and wild freedom of a child is still seen as important and refreshing and something to honor - not something to hate.
it frightens me that so many people are so self righteous that they think they know what kind of DNA is worthy of replicating.. it further frightens me that i am raising two children in a country that resents their mere presence.
if you don't want to have kids, don't. not all of us had kids because we were empty and needed to "make someone to love us". i am not a brainless moron who can't do anything but be a parent. my husband and i are both artists and we both feel like we are good at a lot of things, one of them happens to be parenting.
what an odd thing to be aruguing - it's really sad.
Wow, it is shame that some people hold so much hatred towards children. True, you don't have to love my children, but at least treat them with a little respect....the same respect you want them to display to you. You have to give it to recieve it. I totally respect each persons decision to remain childless. But it is when they start calling them spawns and animals and such that gets to me. That means you were a spawn and animal once too, right??? I mean, I have not seen a full grown adult born to parents. Luckily my CF friends show respect to thier friends with children. It's a personal decision. The same way you want to be respected for being CF we parents want to be respected for chosing to parent, whether it be from our own DNA or not.
"All the orphans in the world, but none of them good enough for you, you had to have one with your blood in it."
Actually, adopting a child is a bureaucratic, difficult, expensive process, as anyone who has looked into this even slightly knows. To say that thoughtful people who wish to become parents don't adopt "orphans" because they're not "good enough" isn't just inflammatory, it's ignorant.
Finally, none of the many adoptive parents I know think of themselves as "noble" -- they consider themselves extremely lucky to have the opportunity to raise their children. I think all good parents feel that way, regardless of whether the kids share their genes.
Finally, I have one last thing to say to you, "People who hate..," and this has nothing to do with your childfree status: God, you're an asshole.
Twelve Things Parents and Wannabe Parents Can Do to Better Get Along with the Childfree:
12) Banish the phrases "You'll change your mind!" "It's different when they're your own!" "I used to think like you, but now I have X number of children!" and "As a parent, I [insert opinion here]" from your vocabulary. Read a Breeder Bingo card and just don't use the bingos, despite the temptation. Ever.
11) Stop assuming that your parental status makes you somehow more authentic, mature, or intelligent than your unchilded peers. That unchilded teacher has a PhD and you have a kid. That means she knows more about education than you do, so get over it.
10) Stop allowing your kids to behave in a disruptive manner in public. The CF couple over there is paying for their dinner the same as you are, and they're just as entitled to a nice night out as you. Everybody else in that theatre paid for a ticket too, and they don't want to listen to your kid's wailing. Teach your kids out-in-public manners, or if they're too young to behave, leave 'em home with a sitter.
9) Stop insisting that "family friendly" work policies ONLY applies to parents with children. I have a disabled brother who I'm helping to support ֠why can't I take family leave to help take care of him? Acknowledge the fact that other people have families who depend on them too, even if their dependents are not their minor children.
8) Your religion may prohibit birth control and say that children are mandatory ֠but in all brutal honesty, that means NOTHING to me. I am not a member of your religion and I do not have to be in any way affected by its rules. This is a free country with no mandated state religion, so you must acknowledge that I can disregard the rules of any religion at will.
7) Stop asking married people "How many kids to you have?" and start asking "Do you have kids?" If the answer is no, acknowledge it and move on. You are not entitled to an explanation as to why that married couple doesn't have kids, so don't expect one.
6) Stop assuming that all CF people have unlimited spare time and money because we don't have children. Also, stop assuming that we all want to use that imaginary unlimited spare time and money babysitting and buying presents for your kids.
5) Stop using your kids as an excuse for your own bad behavior. NEVER cut to the front of the line with the excuse that your kids are waiting for you at home. Being a parent does not mean that you get an automatic pass on good manners or civil behavior. If you've ever played the Parent Card to get your way, stop it now.
4) Knock it off with the knee-jerk hostile reaction to anything that might harm "the children" in some nebulous way. Remember the angry mob that attacked a pediatrician's home because they mistook "pediatrician" for "pedophile." If someone's trying to get you riled up "for the children" check out that instigators' agenda before you start acting like an angry lemming.
3) STOP trying to date professed CF people thinking "I'll change his/her mind," or "I'm so cute, she's GOTTA want my baby eventually," or "I'll just go off the Pill without his knowledge, then he'll want to be a parent!" or "My kids are so cute, s/he'll fall in love with them." Just as no woman is sexy enough to "convert" a gay man, I can't think of any guy who makes me want to get my tubal reversed. If your date says, I don't want kids EVER, believe him/her and move on.
2) Stop flipping out if groups of like-minded CF people put up support boards on the Internet. There are support boards for all kinds of demographics: people with specific diseases, people with specific interests, gay men, lesbians, adoptees, married people, divorced people, people of certain races, of certain religions, of various political groups, and, of course, for people with children. The existence of boards where people who don't have and don't want children can congregate does not hurt ANYONE. We're just talking to each other, not plotting to blow up daycares. Get over it.
1) STOP STOP STOP imagining that you get a vote as far as anyone else's reproductive status! When you urge someone else to have a child, you have no idea what his or her family life was like, what his/her medical history is like, or what that child will do to his or her life. Yes, your kids might be great, but there's absolutely no guarantee that the other person's would be as well. All you accomplish by pestering someone else to have kids (especially when s/he openly professes that s/he doesn't want any) is making a nuisance of yourself. CF people have enough opportunities to feel invalidated and misunderstood in this world without you adding to it.
So there you have it. Follow the above guidelines, and you'll be surprised at how many Parent, Not Breeder RAVES you'll get from your CF friends.
