Thursday, October 1, 2009
Creamtastic / National Skyline Cover Me: Bands, Where Oh Where Does Your Door Money Go?
Posted by Tracy Moore on Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:08 AM
Hey kids, ever play a show at a club? Then you know how the door money always goes to the sound guy before it goes to you. What if it wasn't like that? Well, funny you should ask, because Portland, Oregon's music scene says it doesn't have to be. In an interesting article from a local alt-weekly, writer Amanda Ingram lays out the deets:
Many folks in Portland's music community think that, just like coffee farmers' wages, musicians should be able to demand a fair wage for their performances. But what do the club owners think?
Couldn't tell ya. The article, though certainly to be credited for covering an interesting issue, doesn't devote space to that side of the story. Still, the musician's angle is worth listening to, as some 200 local musicians there have formed an organization--Fair Trade Music Movement--and are in talks with clubs about setting said fair wage for their performances:
Bands usually get a small portion of door sales after clubs take out money for promotion and "house fees," but there's no set practice, and the payout changes from club to club, says Bruce Fife, president of the American Federation of Musicians, Local 99."Money goes to the doorman and soundman before it gets to the band," Fife says. "That money being paid at the door [should be] fairly distributed to the musician."
Who's to say what's fair? This may sound like anathema to the average club-hustling musician in town--and I'm not talking about session players, which is a different issue about compensation. Getting paid playing clubs is like getting paid selling records. You get money in direct proportion to how many warm bodies you can herd into the joint, until you get big enough to demand guarantees that pay you no matter who shows up.
Or maybe musicians feel, and rightly so, that their relationship with club owners is symbiotic and ought to be compensated accordingly, even if both club owner and band have a bad night, and that it isn't being compensated fairly.
According to the article, no other city has tried this sort of thing, and these artists are only negotiating with smaller clubs, not the larger concert halls who already work through negotiated contracts. And though it may sound like a silly feature, clubs who have agreed to participate will display a Fair Trade sticker in their window, which, apparently in a place like Portland where fair trade matters, will actually mean something to the progressive show-going public.
But what could this mean for Nashville? I called up Mercy Lounge manager John Bruton and ran the idea by him.
"I always say you get paid what you're worth," said Bruton, who explained that door deals are far more favorable to local musicians in Nashville than any kind of guarantee, which would take out advertising and house fees. But local bands who play for door don't pay those fees, and production costs here are minimal. It's not like other cities where bands truly do find themselves paying to play.
"The whole thing is paying your dues," he says. "As you progress, you're making more money. Talk to Guilty Pleasures, or for that matter, The Protomen. It's not like anyone's getting ripped off here when they play for door.
"In some cities like L.A., you pay to play just to be able to say you played the Viper Room or the Troubadour. That's not the case in Nashville. Our production cost does not even pay our sound guys. That does not include what we spend on rent, advertising and everything else. I've had a band say, 'Oh, we have to pay to play?' I'm like, 'We're paying for you to play regardless of whether one person shows up or 500.' "
Bruton says in Nashville all the clubs are competitive, and he's not aware of any club that charges more than cost to local bands for production.
But the Portland music scene's efforts bring up the idea that art, by nature, is such a subjective enterprise that while it's easy to say artists and musicians--just like carpenters and gardeners--should be paid fairly for their work, determining the value of that art is so burdened by notions of aesthetics, morality, economics, demand, blah blah blah, that it's understandable why club owners operate on one principle: What's your draw?
Still, all this makes it very difficult to imagine how one suddenly would go negotiating a value for a performance if the demand for it--that is, the number of people who care enough to show up--is removed. Typically, acts who can negotiate guarantees are thought to have built-in draws, although we know those shows to often be drastically under-attended, and clubs risk their own sustainability every time they book them.
And if clubs did agree to some kind of set price for a band, how would they absorb that extra payout to smaller-drawing acts, if/when no one showed up? Could they just set guarantees for smaller bands based on their average or typical performance? Would they have to raise alcohol prices or the cover charge (as Basement owner Mike Grimes often points out, one of the few things that has completely resisted inflation over the last few decades at small clubs)?
"Ask any local band how they are treated in Nashville as far as being fair, and I think they'll agree that it's better to go with a door deal than a guarantee," says Bruton. "When a band doesn't get paid in Nashville, that means a club lost money by even opening the doors."
So what say you, musicians? Are you paid fairly at clubs around town?
Comments (59)
Showing 1-50 of 59
Musicians often seem to forget they're not the only ones involved in making a good show. I'ma musician myself so I'm not casting stones, but I also operate heavily on the other side and I can tell you that in Nashville, if you're not drawing enough to get paid then you're trusting that someone else is going to do your promo work for you or, sad to say, you're just not that good. Personally I think once a band bitches about money they should be blacklisted from having a guest list because most of the time the list would've covered the difference in making production cost, and the people they bring pre-game and/or drink the bands booze so it's not helping out the club either. just sayin, work for it ya'll!
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If you investigate there are a lot of other cities that pay bands fairly to play. Nashville of course isn't one of them. There never seems to be legitimate business being done, in other words what ever cut the club owner decides you get is what you get. Musicians should band together and boycott clubs that don't pay them fairly in Nashville.
You are the ones bringing the people in and think about all that money they make off beer. There should be an agreement that all the money brought in from a show is divided a certain way, and the amount of money grossed should be out in the open. I know the south is predominately conservative, but these Dick Cheney types running these ripoff joints in Nashville should be run the fuck out of business!
Bands need to convince their fans to pay more than $5 to see a show. If every show was at least $10, bands would make money. It's not the venues fault that people won't spend more than $5 to see their friends play a show.
If a band doesn't make money, that means they couldn't bring out more than around 16 people.
If only 16 people come out to a show, the venue makes no money. If venues don't make money, bands have no place to play.
No venue rips off the bands. They bust their ass to give you a place to showcase your talent and make sure all your friends have a good time.
This subject is old and frustrating to me.
I'm not familiar with any clubs who aren't transparent about what they pay you except Loudhouse in greenbriar which, in every capacity, is a worst-case-scenario type of joint. And in lots of cases, the band or bands aren't necessarily responsible for the majority of folks present. Nashville is a lot fairer than many, many nearby AND far-off cities where you do end up paying to play.
Another thing to keep in mind is that many places give bands a chance who are totally unproven, and it would be impossible to continuously do that under some kind of union agreement where every rugrat with a basement or a famous dad felt like they could start up and get bank. Most bands dissolve within a year, but many of these clubs have been operational for 30+ years, and that's because the bands who get paid are the ones who work to build their following and don't play 3 times a freakin week... Unless you're playing with a touring band who needs the scratch but that should be viewed as a show trade for your band if you work it right.
@waitaminute:
"There should be an agreement that all the money brought in from a show is divided a certain way, and the amount of money grossed should be out in the open."
There is such an agreement. In many situations, this agreement is called a contract. At the end of the night, there is something called a settlement, which the artists' and venue's representatives see and which details exactly how much money was brought in through the door. In situations in which a contract is not in place, the agreement of how the money is divided works like this here at Mercy: The band keeps ALL of the money that comes through the door, less a very small amount that does not even cover one-fourth of our operating expenses for the evening. The bands also keeps ALL of the money they make from selling merch.
So how again is this unfair? And don't ever use an invective like "Cheney" to describe us again. Of all of the ignorant and uninformed things you said, that is what hurt the most.
Sorry I "hurt" you. Does it hurt so much because you know it's true? In many situations...that sounds a bit vague.You can't tell me that every club in this town runs a legitimate system like you are saying that you do.My hats off to you if you give the bands all the money that goes through the door. Trying to claim every club does that or something even similar is just ridiculous.
is it possible that there is too much music in nashville?
i'm a pretty serious fan of live music, but i just don't have the time or money to support or keep up with all the things happening in this town. if i did, i'd probably suffer liver failure anyway.
there is a lot of entertainment in this town. but are there enough people to truly support it?
I was in a band in Nashville for years and we also played in many cities all over the country. What I discovered in my seven years is that Nashville (with the exception of one little nameless club across from a bigger nameless club on a street with the initials E.P. and run by a guy whose name rhymes with Moose) was one of, if not the most fair of them all... but almost no city or club that we played in was out to get us. They ran a business and paid us according to the amount of people we brought (and there were times where we played just to have our bartabs wiped, because we drank five beers a piece for every person in the club. We actually thought that was a pretty sweet deal!) But as we played more and word got out, our crowd seemed to grow as well. The one thing that I learned is that just because you spend a lot of time doing something you enjoy doesn't always mean you should get paid for it. The club is taking a chance on your band, not the other way around. There are about 6000 bands in Nashville for every club so playing music is certainly not an original idea. It certainly makes sense that only the best/most liked actually get to make money at it. Otherwise, everyone would be in a band fulltime and no one would be taking my order at Bongo Java.
"The band keeps ALL of the money that comes through the door, less a very small amount that does not even cover one-fourth of our operating expenses for the evening."
So if the Mercy Lounge is at it's 500 capacity and the cover is 10 at the door the band divides up the 5000.That is a nice deal.I recommend all bands play at the Mercy Lounge,even if you fill it half capacity you take home 2grand.
You want to talk about ignorant "Bluedrew"? Ignorant is lumping yourself in with people when you don't even know how they operate their venues.Since you decided to be the representative for Nashville clubs you are claiming they all give bands 100% of what the door takes.That sounds "ignorant" to anyone that actually has a clue and has played more than one show in this town.
@waitaminute
"In many situations...that sounds a bit vague."
The description of the contract was intended to be more for rhetorical effect and not as much for informative purposes, as I did not think it was necessary to describe what a contract is. Since my phrasing there seemed to raise some red flags for you, allow me to clarify: There are two types of situations. 1) Those where a contract is in place. 2) Those where one is not.
•••
"So if the Mercy Lounge is at it's 500 capacity and the cover is 10 at the door the band divides up the 5000.That is a nice deal.I recommend all bands play at the Mercy Lounge,even if you fill it half capacity you take home 2grand."
Yes. You are good at math. 10 times 500 is, in fact, 5000. (You probably should work on your grammar and punctuation, though. Look up punctuation in compound sentences as well as spacing after punctuation marks.) Your point does, nevertheless, ring true. If you sell out a show here, you will make decent money.
•••
"You want to talk about ignorant "Bluedrew"? Ignorant is lumping yourself in with people when you don't even know how they operate their venues.Since you decided to be the representative for Nashville clubs"
Why did you feel the need to place quotation marks around bluedrew? Just curious. I don't really see any stylistic improvement made by that choice. Anyhow, I am not claiming to represent all local clubs: You seemed to make a blanket attack on Nashville clubs and the people who run them. While I am only defending the one where I am employed, I have not heard of many egregious instances of Nashville venues ripping off bands. If this is such a widespread problem, I am surprised that it is not talked about more often.
•••
"you are claiming they all give bands 100% of what the door takes.That sounds "ignorant" to anyone that actually has a clue and has played more than one show in this town."
I assume you are claiming that you would fit the description of someone who both has a clue and has played more than one show in Nashville. Where have you been playing and getting ripped off? Seriously, I think you should spread the word so that other bands will not go through the same thing and also so that patrons will not visit those establishments. Also, I would suggest that you sign up for a remedial English class.
Way to go "bluedrew",Good post!Always refreshing to watch a punctuation/grammar gimp on a blog!Isn't "bluedrew" what you call yourself?Man I guess Nashville is the most legitimate city when it comes to taking the door.Sorry "bluedrew",didn't know I was writing my phukin senior thesis!
What Nashville club was it again that you played at numerous times and that ripped you off? Were you a DJ at Connection or something?
Yeah, way to go Drew!!!!!!!!Didn't I meet you there "bluedrew", you don't remember me. Well aren't you the homophobe, seems you are Dick Cheney after all.
Drew how many names are you going to post under?The fact that you dislike gay people is enough for me not to even talk to you.You obviously get off on having power over people.If your club operates in a legitimate manner that is all you should have stated.You said "we" then you claim to not represent any club but the Mercy Lounge.The fact that you obviously have negative feelings towards gays is enough for anyone not to want to support your club no matter what the cut is.How was that Gumby?
Venues paying their nightly operation cost out of the door (not percentages for rent/electric/etc but sound and door/security) is NOT unethical. The amount of money the average club makes off of the bar isn't what everyone assumes, even if you do a sold out night there's only a percentage of that which is profit and that's where the house bills are drawn from. But the clubs are indeed taking a chance on your band, and paying the operational costs to make your show function while not charging you rent to use their establishment is flat out sensible. Even for bigger bands, covering the events of the night with funds accumulated in the same night isn't unethical or unfair. This is why some people just can't cut it by playing live...the system is designed to be less favorable to bands that people do not wish to see or who don't put the work in.
bluedrew37203 is the only name I post under. I am Andrew Mischke, the general manager of Mercy Lounge. Gumby, on the other hand, is John Bruton, the talent buyer here, who is pretty well-known as one of the most honest and fair people in this business — and has been for years. Who are you again?
•••
I have no problem with gay clubs. I frequented Connection while it was here as well numerous other local gay clubs. Mercy Lounge has been recognized as a very LGBT-friendly establishment by that community. I just happen to know that some people who were involved with Connection felt ripped off when it closed.
•••
Remedial English course should now be moved to number two on your list of priorities. Replacing it at the top should now be a course in basic communication and reasoning skills.
Based on what and how you write, you appear to be an idiot. You have yet to provide a credible argument for any point you have made: Again, when was it you were ripped off by a club owner in Nashville? How often does this happen and which clubs have been doing it?
Until you clear that up, I am pretty sure that no one reading this will find any point that you make to be valid. Instead, most people reading this will just assume the same thing I do: You were (or maybe are) in a shitty band that couldn't put 30 people in Mercy Lounge, The 5 Spot, 328 Performance Hall, Lucy's Record Shop, Excess, The Chute, The Jungle, or even The Longhollow Jamboree — which is why the club didn't pay your band. If your band was (or maybe still is) worth a shit, people would have come to see you play. They obviously did not. The club therefore did not make any money. Since you did not have a contract because the quality of your band did not warrant proper representation, you were paid based on attendance.
Hit me up if you want to try to get on an 8 off 8th sometime: drew@mercylounge.com
If those Portland musicians care so much about getting paid they can either 1. become better musicians that someone other than their buds from the granola collective would pay to see or 2. get a fucking job. Or they can reconsider their monthly drug budget. Whatever.
bluedrew invoked the grammar clause, thus his argument is invalid.
blog commenting fail
Well It's a darn good thing bruce at the end has been standing up for musicians pay for well over 20 years -
no sir he would never think of wetting his beak in somebody's else's water
my band has been around for a while and for the longest time we NEVER got paid when we played a Nashville venue (we're from murfreesboro). why? because we had no draw. a few friends would come out and that's it.
then, Bruce from The End let us open for a national act and people started coming to our shows. we even headlined a show not too long ago there and got paid. what changed? we have a draw.
Andrew from the Mercy Lounge paid us once a long time ago when we opened for a national act that didn't draw as well as expected. they obviously had a guarantee so I'm sure they lost a bit of money on that, but he still payed us.
get a draw, expect money. it's pretty simple.
Drew @ Mercy is quite possibly one of the most stand up dudes around. I've never felt taken advantage of or shorted anytime. In fact he's always been quite the opposite... Very gracious. It's a tight ship over there.
You make a fine authority figure,and a great blog sheriff "Bluedrew".Thanks for the invite but I've already played 8 off 8th a couple of times.You guys have worked wonders with that place through the remodel.
"Were you a DJ at Connection or something?"
I know my reading comprehension is way off but that did sound like you calling me homosexual in a derogatory manner.Seems like the Mercy Lounge would want a representative that handled themselves in a more professional manner.
"I just happen to know that some people who were involved with Connection felt ripped off when it closed."
It is difficult to believe that wasn't a shot at gay people,if you actually knew DJs at the connection why don't you list their names,and why didn't you state that in the first place.No sense in backpeddling now.If you feel like calling someone gay is putting them down you should be open about it.
List of clubs for Bluedrew that my band didn't get a fair cut of the door:
The End:5 dollar cover,82 not on the guest list in attendance,2 bands,7 people total,payout 6 dollars each.
The basement:approximately 60 in attendance,5 dollar cover,no payout
"I have not heard of many egregious instances of Nashville venues ripping off bands. If this is such a widespread problem, I am surprised that it is not talked about more often."
Well obviously you are right there to talk shit to anybody who claims it has happened to them and call them idiots so why would you hear about it?That was a sweet tasty run-on sentence I threw in there at the end just for you blog sheriff.
You aren't the same Andrew Mischke from this article are you? "The so-called company district manager, who identified himself as Andrew Mischke, lied to me and operated in violation of the federal law."Just asking,not accusing you of anything.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/Corrupt-Companies/Apex-Technology-Cons/apex-technology-consultants-ri-4p9ad.htm
Your pussy hurts. Bad. Wait a minute!!!
I've never fealt ripped off by clubs in nashville. Wall street in m'boro, definately. Every descent place to play in nashville is fair as fuck and I got their back.
Many times the person ripping you off is the member of the headlining band that got paid out. That shit happens, but it aint on the club. I'm not naming any names, but there was a time when a certain local band had a "manager" that pissed off all of that local band's friends for doing just that. That sucks. But it aint the club's problem.
Btw if we are getting on the subject of grammer, put a fucking space after your punctuation, ddt person. That shit gets hard to read. Just sayin.
I aint no grammerian.
@ ashley spurgeon
yea you're right ashley...all of those horrible no talent portland bands like the shins, modest mouse, the decemberists, starfucker, viva voce, hockey, the thermals etc. etc. and the hundreds of other notable bands that only the locals listen to. Sounds like you need to get out of nashville once in a while
Hey ddt guy!
I know I'm a little late in the game getting in on this but I've been busy with the day to day grind of running a music venue. Allow me to introduce myself.My REAL name is Chark Kinsolving and I am the co-owner and originator/builder/idea guy behind the Mercy Lounge.
While I feel that my GM,Drew,has done a wonderful job explaining,not only to you but every reader in general,a few of the ins and outs of how a door deal is done vs.a pre-negotiated contract with an established band I feel I must direct a few coments DIRECTLY to you.
In my opinion if you would like to be taken seriously then use your REAL fucking name!I hate nothing more than to read snide little comments by chickenshit dickweeds that are directed at my club or my employees and/or policies that you think you have some sort of clue about!And the fact that you do this behind the mask of some stupid fake-ass name really pisses me off! I don't always agree with everything that Adam Gold writes here but at least he uses his real name.I know that when I see him we can have a friendly debate about why Grand Funk Railroad is better than whatever band of the moment he's raving about. That's what real people who aren't chickenshit do.That's why I like Adam. He's never afraid to speak his mind.
What's the name of your band again? Oh...that's right,you held that back too. I stand with Drew in inviting you to play 8 off 8th again and with your permission perhaps we can study your band and maybe help you figure out why more people don't come to see you.It could be something simple like collective body odor,out of tune instruments,severe ugliness or maybe just shitty songs.3 out of 4 of these could easily be corrected so what do you have to lose? Perhaps with a little guidance,your band might one day get paid.
I know I've baited you a bit here but I've done it under my REAL name.I've nothing to hide and I'm certainly not afraid. If you have any response at all, I suggest you use your REAL name.Or if you're afraid to let the web-world know your true identity,come find me at the bar.I'm here most nights and I'm in the office everyday.I'm easy to find.
Remember this,if you EVER insult my business,my employess or policies based on some bullshit speculation then you are indirectly insulting me. Your ass is writing a check that can only be cashed,in person,at the bank of Chark.
No hard feelings!
Wow. Thanks Chark. For those of you who know Chark, the fact that he is posting on the local indie-hipster blog is pretty remarkable.
It's funny how Chark, John, myself and others reveal exactly who we are so that gutless people like ddt can google our names and histories. Who are you again? What is the name of your band? Let us know so that we can talk to Mike Grimes and Bruce to clear up how you got screwed out of proper door settlement.
Since you do know who I am, real quick, just to clear anything up: Yes, I worked for a company that called itself Apex Technology Consultants (among many other things) six or seven years ago. It ended up with me losing tens of thousands of dollars, moving back into my parents' basement, completely destroying my credit, and actually breaking my neck. It was not a reputable company. But yeah, that article is about me.
@joe bloe
Yeah dude,
here's the list of bands that have signed on. The bands you mentioned decided to work on my first suggestion. Maybe Beatnik Cigarette Holda, The Erotic Politicians, and Phamous Phaces could do the same.
my real name is adam moult, i yell shit in bad cop.
My personal opinion:
Anyone who is dogging on these clubs, FUCK OFF. Honestly. I know some of the people who run these business', and no, they ARE NOT sharks trying to feed off musicians. I also book a good number of shows, and do not see bands getting fucked. Honestly, a lot of the time I see the club paying out of town bands money, even when the number of people at the show was incredibly low..... I call that generosity........ believe it or not, a lot of people just feel thankful for the opportunity to preform somewhere other than a basement, some people can play music and love it, without a dollar sign crossing their mind...
Another personal opinion: If your band gets fucked over by a club, don't hide behind a name on a message board,and bring it up months later. Grow some balls and ask that night, you know, when the shows over....I donno! Just a little common sense I gotsssss!
*yawn*
Who the fuck said anything about the Mercy Lounge anyway?I'm glad you guys think your badasses but nobody even said anything about your club anyway.All I said was the clubs that rip bands off should be run the fuck out of business.If you the big shit at Mercy Lounge why don't you get your employees to figure out what the fuck they're talking about before they talk shit to people while representing your club.
Making derogatory comments about people being gay shouldn't be tolerated by any establishment.Nobody said anything about being a DJ,we were talking about bands.Bluedrew made the comment about me being a DJ at the Connection.I really don't give two shits about your input anyway because you run the club,of course your going to say you do the right thing.My advice is take a long look in the mirror,because if I was pushing 50 like you two I wouldn't be trying to impress a bunch of twenty somethings.
Again to the deductive reasoning professor you have on the payroll,nobody ever said shit about the Mercy Lounge.Bluedrew sounds like a real stand up guy(yeah right),but who gives a fuck anyway?Obviously the Mercy Lounge feels like they are doing something wrong because they have gotten so defensive about this subject.
Chark what are you Lee Marvin or something?People only talk that way in movies don't they?First of all your employee insulted me first.Wow you are a really powerful man aren't you Chark?*yawn*
Hope you guys have a great day!
Chark always sounds like Lee Marvin. Thats why he's awesome. That and the "Fog" hat. That shit cracks me up every time.
Yeah but if your built like Paul Blart Mall cop you aren't very intimidating.The funny thing is these two go on about reading comprehension and they can't even grasp that none of this was directed toward them in any way.
"Remember this,if you EVER insult my business,my employess or policies based on some bullshit speculation then you are indirectly insulting me. Your ass is writing a check that can only be cashed,in person,at the bank of Chark."
That was actually a really strange statement to type.Is that supposed to be some kind of threat of physical harm?That is what it sounds like to me.So your employees can go around calling other people names but if anyone says anything back to them you will whip the backtalkers "ass".That is what you appear to be saying.What kind of power do you think you have?
Begging people to use real names in a blog comments section......also fail.
welcome to the internet, friends.
I'll suck your dick for $1000.
God, why didn't I think to use that one. You are so smart, Ashley.
DDT dude
I'd like to know the stats bands and date on you claiming you got 82 paid at the end and saw a 6 dollar payout. I can damn near guarantee an outside promoter booked your band and, I hate to break your heart, but paid the rest of the bands more money. I have not only personally handled the payouts there but have worked there for quite some time, and night in and night out I have NEVER seen Bruce go against his door deal. You may not like the deal, many people don't, but his door deal is his door deal and he takes the same damn amount every night and has been for 10 years. YOU may have gotten 6 bucks, but that either means you played with a touring band who had a contracted percentage and you were too inexperienced to ask or you got boned by an outside promoter/band manager. Still not the venue's ethics in question.
And we're all still curious what you and your fellow pioneers in the art of music call yourselves.
Wow, I miss out on everything. ddt, please check with
The Basement, we have a box full of unclaimed bands
$$$ when they leave without being paid, perhaps you forgot to check before loading out,but you have to
identify yourself on this blog to cash in. And we got
a little something for that sore vag you must be sportin.
Thanks for sticking up for us Drew.
Way before your time young man.You weren't working the sound at that time.How do you know how much he's taken every night for ten years,you haven't worked there for ten years.Who cares what the name of my shitty band is or who I am?Funny you don't hear a lot of band members coming on and defending venues and the great treatment they're getting.I don't really even give a shit about "the deal" everyone knows what happens sometimes in this town.It's obvious you are trying to score points with "the man".Good luck with that.
OK, so I get why DDT is a jerk, but why does his vagina hurt? I think refusing to identify yourself on a blog where you're slinging pretty serious accusations of corrupt paying politics is cowardly, but I'm not sure how that means he's like a woman.
Someone, please enlighten me, because my pussy hurts just thinking about it.
i think the real problems are:
a) Too many good bands in Nashville, resulting in the shitty ones being completely screwed b/c most people can tell the good bands from the shitty ones in a city full of music-related transplants.
b) Not enough fans to go around. Sure, your band might bring out people even though your band sucks, but soon your friends will start finding excuses to not come to your shows anymore and that's when you do the city a favor and break up.
c) I definitely do not think that most clubs take advantage of bands. In most cases, you should be thanking them for rolling the dice and letting your no-name band perform at their establishment. However, some local clubs have a bad habit of letting lots of "regulars" in for free. I can't tell you how many nights I have felt that my band or my show lost $100+ from the door b/c so many people walked in for free. Granted, most of those folks probably wouldn't have come to the show anyway, but come on people... if you can afford to get smashed at the bar, you can pay the $5 cover. My advice to local bands that are concerned about getting ripped off: Every club has someone working there with an email address. Get the door-deal agreement in writing via email, print that shit out and bring it with you to the show. End of transaction.
d) You have to be a little crazy and masochistic to create a venue, run a venue or work for a venue. Many Nashville venue owners and employees are very unique characters with large personalities. These people truly care about the music scene and obviously WANT your shitty band to succeed (and drink) b/c that is how they survive. Many venues (even some of the good ones) struggle to get by just like you do. Would you let strangers come over and use your electricity, water, drink your beer and watch your movies for free? if you answered "yes", please move to murfreesboro.
e) re: door deals... Nashville clubs would never go for this but one strategy used by some clubs in Dallas, TX is that when show attendees arrive at the club, they state which band they came to see and pay the door person. Bands get paid directly by how many people come to see them. This sucks for a lot of local headliners but finally the supporting bands get a fair fight. Also it creates more of an incentive for bands to promote their performances so they get paid according to their efforts. I'm not even going to get into the conversation about bands sharing a percentage of bar sales...
f) Finally, there ARE a couple of shady fucks in this town and a couple that are just incompetent. Nobody in their right mind is going to call these people out publicly b/c it's not worth suffering the backlash or being blacklisted b/c you never know when you might need a show at one of the shady clubs if the respectable clubs are already booked. So just remember to get shit in writing, if you don't trust the door person, bring your own, promote the hell out of your shows (primarily 21+ drinking crowd) and attempt to build a positive relationship with the owners of the club. Everybody will be on the same page and your band might wind up with some awesome shows and money in the bank.
Uh, I don't need to score points with anyone dude. I also have no qualms about using my real name despite my youth, unlike yourself in your mature, sensible age.
I started booking rock shows when i was 12 years old and did a damn good job getting bands paid, and I still do. I've had a personal relationship with hundreds of bands in this town for an 11 year span of time who all say the same thing except you.
Bringing up my age as a negative is a pretty defensive stance, especially when you're only statement regarding your bogus claim is "how do YOU know I'm lying?". Prove it and quit hiding your name/band name or just stop asserting false claims towards the people responsible for your ill-advised chance to play in the first place, jerkass.
And in response to the door deal proposal used in Dallas...The band/fan allotment ratio is pretty tricky, especially here because everyone knows everyone. It opens up a door for false claims and bias in a much more uncheckable way, and lesser known touring bands would never see a dime. An even split past production is probably the most unbiased, static approach...The bands gotta do the footwork either way. One thing I will say is that a lot of our venues in Nashville should put a little more scratch towards general promotion in publications other than the Scene/Metromix and do more tie-ins with local businesses and restaurants...we have a pretty exclusive opportunity to mutually benefit our community and it should be stronger, and that would also help the bands substantially.
Some cities also have standard agreements on the part of all the clubs that you can't play 2 weeks prior to or after a gig within the city limits. I wouldn't be terribly opposed to seeing that enforced (exceptions being some showcase/free show situations and house shows) cause a lot of people have a distorted view of how often they can continuously draw a crowd. Just sayin
@ Tracy
It's exactly like the gay comment that Bluedrew made.The prevalent Nashville mentality must be way behind,no respect for women or gays.It's truly shocking yet slightly entertaining to think that these people act like they represent environments and ideas that are accepting of everyone.It almost seems like the people that act like rednecks on this blog would come and burn your house down if you told them who you were.You can't win to lose if you try and back up what you say so what does it matter?
If these clubs ran a legit pay and play system they would have no problem posting the equations.Who cares anyway,anyone who states anything on this blog that is against the conformed norm is just treated like a jerk-off that's jealous of everyone because they are in a shitty band.
@ Jesse Baker
Just to let you know you aren't as indie hip as you think you are just because you're running sound at the End.I'm not going to waste time calling you names like you did to me,right now just think of the adjectives that pop into your head when you wake up and look in the mirror.You can't point to any square equation on how door deals are done there,instead you just blow more hot air.Let me let you in on a little secret,nobody wants to play at the End unless they have to.Do you not already know that,the acoustics are crap and don't take this wrong,but since the big man left sound mixing quality has been quite lacking.If you don't believe my hearsay bullshit then just ask around.
"Nobody in their right mind is going to call these people out publicly b/c it's not worth suffering the backlash or being blacklisted b/c you never know when you might need a show at one of the shady clubs if the respectable clubs are already booked."
Has to be the best point in this muck of chaos.
Haha im totally "indie hip", its sweet all except for the fact that I'm not entirely sure what that means but you're obviously the authority on me so I'll take your word. When I look in the mirror I say "my band didn't get enough money that time we brought our coworkers and family out to watch us play what are basically covers of other better but still shitty bands and im bitter because im insecure"
I never claimed to be as good as Brad, dude. Being that Brad trained me, and he's been doing his job for 30 some odd years, that would be a pretty unintelligent statement.
I'm not really concerned with who wants to play where or who you talk to about said subject, it's not my club I just work there. However I will say the rampant number of requests I personally receive for bands new and established alike (in addition to our full calendar) suggests you are misinformed on said subject, at least to some extent.
Now the big one. I can, indeed, point to an EXACT figure on the door deal. Not only can I do so, but anyone who takes the time to ask instead of bitching about deserving more pay for a band they're too cowardly to name when openly speaking to someone who ISN'T scared of using their real name could easily do so as well.
I'm pretty sure the opinion on ethical, proper payscale and venue operation is much more well trusted to someone willing to cite their EXACT grievances instead of attempting to cover their overwhelming lack of argument by attacking someone's youth. Maybe im too "indie hip" to understand why this is, but it strikes me as a sign of immaturity and cowardice to clearly indicate your knowledge of me, my occupation, and my place of work and throw insults out while in hiding. But I'm sure your amazing band deserves more money.
BTW Bruce keeps records, so if you care to get detailed we can go ahead a squash your claims anytime you like. I believe Mike Grimes stated something to the same effect above. Why not take these unfair, terrible, no-good very bad club owners who "oughta be shut down" to school, friend?
Notice he didn't post the figures.If I was you when I looked in the mirror I would say "I guess I need to run my mouth a lot today to make up for what I'm lacking in size."I didn't attack your youth,just said you were young.Since you've been booking shows since you were twelve then you are truly the expert.You are truly just a waste of time because you can't post any figures to back anything up.It must be the tight shirts and pants you wear that have cut off all circulation to the brain.Peace out!!!!!
Haha did you just call me small? I can't be that small if my clothes are so tight
3 bands or less OR dj event
80/20 after 125 (20 to club)
The 125 goes up 10 bones pe r band after that
All ages is different, 60(bands)/40(club) after 200
Rentals for 18+ are a flat 200 for 3 bands or less, much higher for all ages which fluctuates but its a rental so all that is worked out in advance of course
Contractual obligations on the part of touring/national acts alter the split occasionally, and of course that information is always readily available to any individual, just gotta ask.
So by your stats you came away with 6 bucks a head on 7 people , which is 42 total...however that would suggest the bands got paid different amounts since 2 "bands" totalling 7 people don't have an equal number of members unless yore sharing people, which means Bruce didn't do the split at the end of the evening so you probably got dicked by an outside promoter, or you're flat out lying. In whichever case, good luck in your future travels! I'm sure I won't see you since my young, small, tightly clothed, "indie hip" self is far below the radar of such a champion of greatness.
I take it back,you are my new hero!That is some funny shit!!!!!!Can anyone else who's played at the End back up his split claim.
The Internet tough guy talk is amusing. never had a prob at M Lounge. The End is a total crapshoot. I've definately been screwed there but I've also had a couple nights where they paid us more than I thought we deserved so it evens out. Plus I feel for them- the amount of utter bullshit that club has to suffer thru... Never liked 12th & P's 'production charges' but they've got a great room. Best money is (no joke) Mexican places. Did a bunch of them with Danny Salizar a few years back and we made some great bank! It's a wonder we get paid at all in Nashville- music grows on trees here. The real moneys in sessions and country gigs. Just curious, for serious: what shows does a 12 yr old book?
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